USPSA weapon light rule change?

[JCSR]

The problem is USPSA needs more divisions. Carry Light would take care of a lot of new shooters. And of course Carry Light with magnets. It's so clear I can't believe the BOD hasn't jumped on it. But I think they would rather us shup up and shoot.

 

[Jaybird1980]

I couldn't care less what the rules actually are, getting more people into the sport is always a plus for me. And the holster placement thing makes sense, but so does using mags to full capacity in production.

I just wish they would announce their intentions beforehand so that people don't go out and spend money on new gear specific to production and then 2 months later the rules change and now there is a lot more options for that person.

I realize this is probably not a big deal, because a lot of people are always changing up their gear, but a little heads up is always appreciated.

 

[jakemartens]

I couldn't care less what the rules actually are, getting more people into the sport is always a plus for me. And the holster placement thing makes sense, but so does using mags to full capacity in production.

I just wish they would announce their intentions beforehand so that people don't go out and spend money on new gear specific to production and then 2 months later the rules change and now there is a lot more options for that person.

I realize this is probably not a big deal, because a lot of people are always changing up their gear, but a little heads up is always appreciated.

You are correct, and that is something that we do need to do a better job for sure.
The bylaws actually state this, however the intent was to allow more inclusive changes, not exclusive, or making gear obsolete. But there can be the same effect, for example getting a new holster that isn’t set up for WML, and now wanting to run one. But the difference here is that it isn’t a mandatory change for any rule that went into effect, it just allows it.
The difference being, for example 9mm major being eliminated, that would make that pile ammo you have obsolete, or 40sw is no longer required for major in Limited making guns obsolete (none of those examples have been discussed or considered, even though there are many manufacturers and gunsmith that wish we would).
Allowing to move your current gear around is optional, adding a light is optional. I don’t run a magnet in Limited or Open division, but I always could, I don’t have a laser or offset optic on PCC, but always could, it was my choice.
These changes are the same now, it is your choice, not mandatory, however it was mandatory to run you holster behind your hip, and to have someone subjectively decide if it was in the right spot. The addition of a light forced you into a division your firearm wasn’t designed to be in, now it doesn’t and it is your option to run it or not. Inclusive not exclusive.

I am not adding 5oz of dead weight to dustcover of a 45oz gun that is already nose heavy.. I shoot enough low deltas already. My draw is already slow enough that adding an additional 2 inches of a light to clear the holster isn’t going to help that..
Will a couple oz on the dustcover of a polymer framed gun in production help it, maybe, but there are other things to consider, drawing the gun for one, transitions etc, and if that was so important before you could have already bought a $150 tungsten guide rod and $100 brass or steel plug for the grip and saved $50 over a flashlight.

 

[jakemartens]

The problem is USPSA needs more divisions. Carry Light would take care of a lot of new shooters. And of course Carry Light with magnets. It's so clear I can't believe the BOD hasn't jumped on it. But I think they would rather us shup up and shoot.

We need less divisions in my opinion and if we were starting new tomorrow I think it should be
Optics Major
Optics Minor
Irons Major
Irons Minor

and yeah I left out PCC..

 

[Jaybird1980]

We need less divisions in my opinion and if we were starting new tomorrow I think it should be
Optics Major
Optics Minor
Irons Major
Irons Minor

and yeah I left out PCC..

You forgot the Rimfire Optics/ Irons.

And abolish the 10rd mag, it feels like a punishment because of states with ridiculous laws. Maybe just make it no adding capacity, however the pistol came from the factory is the capacity. This may not be a problem soon enough they may all be 10rd limited.

 

[jakemartens]

You forgot the Rimfire Optics/ Irons.

And abolish the 10rd mag, it feels like a punishment because of states with ridiculous laws. Maybe just make it no adding capacity, however the pistol came from the factory is the capacity. This may not be a problem soon enough they may all be 10rd limited.

Rimfire doesn’t belong in USPSA matches. But having something between Steel Challenge and USPSA for rimfire... hmmm

I don’t shoot Production much, I think 15 rounds just makes you sloppy and doesn’t add anything. The board sees it that it continues to distinguish a separation between divisions. Open is comps, optics and 170mm mags major scoring, Limited is irons, 140mm mags and major scoring, CO is slide ride optics on production da/sa guns that might certain restrictions, minor scoring, Production is limited capacity, minor scoring, meets specific restrictions, Single stack and Revolver are obvious.

I have guns that I can shoot in production that have factory mags of 15, 16, 17, 18 and even 21 round (a canik 21 round mag works in a Walther PDP) so who can tell? Rules have to be enforceable.
There are only 8 matches plus Nationals that require a Chrono stage, which doesn’t stipulate a gear check. There are roughly 5000 other matches that happen a year that do not stipulate any gear check or Chrono. You can’t make a rule that requires someone to be an expert on the magazines that come with a factory gun, it is impossible.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Rimfire doesn’t belong in USPSA matches. But having something between Steel Challenge and USPSA for rimfire... hmmm

I don’t shoot Production much, I think 15 rounds just makes you sloppy and doesn’t add anything. The board sees it that it continues to distinguish a separation between divisions. Open is comps, optics and 170mm mags major scoring, Limited is irons, 140mm mags and major scoring, CO is slide ride optics on production da/sa guns that might certain restrictions, minor scoring, Production is limited capacity, minor scoring, meets specific restrictions, Single stack and Revolver are obvious.

I have guns that I can shoot in production that have factory mags of 15, 16, 17, 18 and even 21 round (a canik 21 round mag works in a Walther PDP) so who can tell? Rules have to be enforceable.
There are only 8 matches plus Nationals that require a Chrono stage, which doesn’t stipulate a gear check. There are roughly 5000 other matches that happen a year that do not stipulate any gear check or Chrono. You can’t make a rule that requires someone to be an expert on the magazines that come with a factory gun, it is impossible.

Ok I can live with the 10rd mag limit, but make the Rimfire thing a reality. Look how popular the Rimfire falling steel matches are.

 

[jakemartens]

Ok I can live with the 10rd mag limit, but make the Rimfire thing a reality. Look how popular the Rimfire falling steel matches are.

Look through Troys presentation real close..

 

[2-Alpha]

I don’t see why major/minor should be a division. That’s just an equipment choice.

I started USPSA back when it was just Open/Limited/Revolver (using a revolver, because that was my carry gun at the time). Limited 10 and Single-Stack came soon after. With the change on holster position I don’t see much difference between Production and Limited 10 now.

My list of divisions would be:

Limited - anything iron sights, no capacity limit, lights allowed

Limited 10 - same, but 10-rd capacity limit, so people who can’t have bigger mags aren’t classified against people who can, and for the single-stacks (including the compact 9s like the Shield, G48, etc. 10+ compacts like the Hellcat can download to 10)

Carry Optics - lights allowed, no ports/comps
Carry Optics 10 - same, except capacity limit, includes revolvers with small optics

Revolver - no optics or ports/comps

PCC
PCC10

Open - anything else, including ports/comps

From a classification point of view maybe there’s no need for the “-10” divisions (since classifiers don’t run 10+ without a mandatory reload). In that case I’d say no CO10 or PCC10, but you still need a Lim10 for the 1911s and compact 9mm for match scoring. (keeping things level on the field courses with 3-5 reloads vs 1-2) Maybe call that Single-Stack or Compact instead? Ban states would be equal at local match level, but maybe you need them for national/regional matches?

I’d consider Rimfire classes, but that’s really not “practical” the way the sport was envisioned. Maybe allow that as club-level option like IDPA does? For that I’d add Rimfire Irons, Rimfire Optics, and Rimfire Rifle (optics allowed). 10-rd limit for pistols, no limit for rifles.

 

[jakemartens]

I don’t see why major/minor should be a division. That’s just an equipment choice.

I started USPSA back when it was just Open/Limited/Revolver (using a revolver, because that was my carry gun at the time). Limited 10 and Single-Stack came soon after. With the change on holster position I don’t see much difference between Production and Limited 10 now.

My list of divisions would be:

Limited - anything iron sights, no capacity limit, lights allowed

Limited 10 - same, but 10-rd capacity limit, so people who can’t have bigger mags aren’t classified against people who can, and for the single-stacks (including the compact 9s like the Shield, G48, etc. 10+ compacts like the Hellcat can download to 10)

Carry Optics - lights allowed, no ports/comps
Carry Optics 10 - same, except capacity limit, includes revolvers with small optics

Revolver - no optics or ports/comps

PCC
PCC10

Open - anything else, including ports/comps

From a classification point of view maybe there’s no need for the “-10” divisions (since classifiers don’t run 10+ without a mandatory reload). In that case I’d say no CO10 or PCC10, but you still need a Lim10 for the 1911s and compact 9mm for match scoring. (keeping things level on the field courses with 3-5 reloads vs 1-2) Maybe call that Single-Stack or Compact instead? Ban states would be equal at local match level, but maybe you need them for national/regional matches?

I’d consider Rimfire classes, but that’s really not “practical” the way the sport was envisioned. Maybe allow that as club-level option like IDPA does? For that I’d add Rimfire Irons, Rimfire Optics, and Rimfire Rifle (optics allowed). 10-rd limit for pistols, no limit for rifles.

There are several new classifiers that are 12 rounds without a required reload

 

[2-Alpha]

Rimfire doesn’t belong in USPSA matches. But having something between Steel Challenge and USPSA for rimfire... hmmm

Rimfire Falling Steel fits that niche, but something using USPSA targets would be less investment for the clubs. Having rimfire be a separate match from USPSA would allow shorter stages since most new shooters aren’t going to have mag carriers for rimfire.

Looking back on my previous post...another idea would be Full-size, Compact, Carry Optic, Revolver, PCC, Open. 10-rd and a smaller box for Compact, no capacity limit and a larger box for Full-size and CO. Lights in anything. No holster position limits, but maybe “no race holsters” except in Open?

 

[Grelber]

Revolver - no optics or ports/comps

We are living in interesting times. If ammo prices stay high and match round counts continue to drop it will be interesting to see if the wheel guns get more popular, particularly if the 10 round mag limit law passes.

A 20 round stage shot 6 round major (or even 8 minor) offers a lot of opportunity to screw up reloads and miss the steel you can't afford to miss and all that other frustrating stuff that is addictive.

 

[IsThatLegal?]

We are living in interesting times. If ammo prices stay high and match round counts continue to drop it will be interesting to see if the wheel guns get more popular, particularly if the 10 round mag limit law passes.

A 20 round stage shot 6 round major (or even 8 minor) offers a lot of opportunity to screw up reloads and miss the steel you can't afford to miss and all that other frustrating stuff that is addictive.

Yep, I have been wondering if that might happen to some extent during the next 4 years . . . . . Although I have been told by multiple people that they will slap the crap out of my if I start shooting revolver competitively. ("Just step away from the revolver Neil, you dont want to go there")

 

[longbeard]

Yep, I have been wondering if that might happen to some extent during the next 4 years . . . . . Although I have been told by multiple people that they will slap the crap out of my if I start shooting revolver competitively. ("Just step away from the revolver Neil, you dont want to go there")

I just won't talk to you anymore, and everyone already associates me with PCC, so that should say something.

 

[longbeard]

This thread just makes Charlie Brown teacher sounds for me. I know the rules are needed, but there is a certain sense of irony with amount of them given the fact that most shooters hang their hat on liberty.

Give me liberty or a new weapon light I say.

 

[IsThatLegal?]

This thread just makes Charlie Brown teacher sounds for me. I know the rules are needed, but there is a certain sense of irony with amount of them given the fact that most shooters hang their hat on liberty.

Give me liberty or a new weapon light I say.

I blame the lawyers for all these ridiculous rules.

And I didnt know that you shot anything other than pcc. . . . .

The pendulum swings in this sport. I think it is headed in the direction of inviting more and more new shooters to the sport without a high(er) investment threshold. That is important for the sport, and for "us" 2A folks, long term. Hopefully ammo becomes readily available again soon to help feed the machine. I have 2 friends that are 1st time gun buyers. They are learning, and they have interest in improving skills/proficiency. They do not have a ton of extra $ to throw into the sport, but I think they will come shoot with me in the late summer as they improve and are able shoot what they have (without much more of an investment). Historically, I have never liked giving that "speech" to a new shooter about why they are now in this limited or open division because the equipment the have is mildly non-compliant with production. I do think production helps learn reload skills a lot, but I also think many newbs and non-newbs get frustrated with shooting 10 rds out of a much higher capacity factory mag gun. They are like "why?" ‍ but then again, we have the blessing of living in a state that doesnt limit cap to 10 rds.

To follow up on what Jake said, these changes will not effect me much if at all. I shoot CO mostly. I am not going to add a WML. My shadow2 is heavy enough and I dont run WMLs on my carry guns. If my holster moves, it is because I got fatter and need to move it forward a little, or if I want to practice with my AIWB CO gun.

I have learned a ton from this sport. I am not a top tier shooter but I have become proficient, educated, knowledgeable and confident to a degree. I owe this sport and those that shoot this sport for that. I have been able to start sharing that knowledge base with others. And the entire time I have had fun and met some great friends. For me, it doesnt get much better than that. I few rule changes along the way havent changed any of that to much of a degree. If we can get new people into the sport through these rule changes, I think that is good for all of us.

 

[masterdekoy]

This seemed like the correct place to post this, if not sry to necro a thread.

Didn’t take long for someone to game the rules. Not that I blame them, competitors will always look for an edge...

Brass Weapon Mounted Light by Lok Grips

Brass Weapon Mounted Light by Lok Grips (LLBWML)

benstoegerproshop.com

 

[downrange72]

Flashlights, but still 10 rounds in production smh.

I'll agree with you...once

 

[Dean C.]

This seemed like the correct place to post this, if not sry to necro a thread.

Didn’t take long for someone to game the rules. Not that I blame them, competitors will always look for an edge...

Brass Weapon Mounted Light by Lok Grips

Brass Weapon Mounted Light by Lok Grips (LLBWML)

benstoegerproshop.com

I saw that from LOK and was definitely amused, that being said why can't they allow SAO guns into carry Optics

 

[Bosshoss]

I saw that from LOK and was definitely amused, that being said why can't they allow SAO guns into carry Optics

They already have a devision for SAO with Optics