VUPDblue's Pop Quiz #2

[VUPDblue]

Of the examples in the list below, which is a Machinegun, Short Barreled Rifle, Any Other Weapon, Short Barreled Shotgun and Destructive Device? List your responses like this:
A=Short Barreled Rifle
B=SHort Barreled Shotgun
etc...

The tricky part is that not every example will be an NFA item. I only want you to pick out and identify the NFA items

A: This item is a flat piece of steel with a paddle attached that, when installed in a certain rifle, causes it to fire fully automatic. This is the piece of steel only, not the rifle itself.

B: This item is a revolver that holds only 3 rounds. The rounds are 12ga shotshells.

C. This item is a Remington 870 receiver with an 18.1" barrel and a pistol grip only.

D. This item is a Remington 870 with no stock and 10" barrel and which is fitted underneath the barrel of an AR15/M16. These are commonly known as a 'Master Key'. Specifically, classify this item when it is attached to the host rifle, not standing alone.

E. This item is a shoulder-fired firearm with 2 barrels in an over-and-under configuration. The barrels are both 15" long. The top barrel is a 20ga smoothbore barrel. The bottom barrel is a rifled barrel chambered in .38special.

F. This item is a rifle with a 16" barrel and a collapsible stock. The overall length of this rifle with the stock extended is 29" and the overall length with the stock folded is 22".

G. This item is a standard Glock 19 9mm pistol with a 5" barrel and with a shoulder stock attached.

H. This item is a firearm that resembles a fountain pen, must be folded into an "L" to fire, is chambered in .22lr and has a rifled barrel 2.75" long.

I. This item is the host rifle for option A. By itself, it is a semi-automatic only rifle, but it is capable of receiving option A easily.

The intent of this is to get you guys and gals thinking! It's only a couple words on some paper that make the difference between legal and illegal. I also hope this is educational and fun, but please try to keep your posts on-topic.

 

[RonPaulSupporter]

Here's my try......
A. Machine Gun
B. Destructive Device?
C. Non-NFA
D. Short Barrel Shotgun
E. Short Barrel Rifle
F. Non-NFA
G. SBR
H. AOW
I. Non-NFA, unless you possess the full-auto conversion at the same time

Tell me how I did!

 

[bigcraig]

A) LL=machinegun
B) AOW
C) Title I
D) SBS
E) Tough one, IIRC classified as an AOW.
F) Titile I
G) SBR
H) AOW
I) Title I

This quiz needs more Destructive Devices!

 

[kludge]

A: Machine gun
B: AOW
C. ?? A handgun by IN law.
D. SBS
E. SBS + SBR = AOW?
F. A rifle
G. SBR
H. AOW
I. Machine Gun

 

[shooter521]

A: Machine Gun (SWD "Lightning Link" or "Auto Connector")

B: AOW

C. Title I gun

D. Short-Barreled Shotgun

E. AOW

F. Title I gun (CAR-15)

G. Short-Barreled Rifle

H. Title I gun

I. Title I gun

 

[VUPDblue]

Some good replies here.

I intentionally did something with this one to get some discussion going. Here's the key and why:

A.=Machingun, because it in itself is capable of converting a regulare semi-auto to fully automatic.
B.=Destructive Device, because it's bore is greater than .5", it is not made from a shotgun, and I doubt that it would be found to have a "sporting purpost" This is the category that I wanted to get some discussion going on, as in why a DD and not AOW?
C.=Title 1 weapon, though it is not technically a 'shotgun' either, but it's barrel length and OAL put it into the Title 1 cagegory.
D.=Short Barreled Shotgun, because when it's affixed to the AR, the buttstock of the AR becomes the buttstock of the 870,thus putting it into SBS range.
E.=This is the AOW. BATFE specifically uses this type of firearm as an example of an AOW. History says it was classified an AOW because it was a popular hunting configuration in the '30's and they didn't want to tax it out of existence with a $200 stamp. (though simply regulating it as NFA regulated it out of existence)
F.=This is another Title 1 weapon. The fedgov measures a long-arm by the OAL with the stock extended, regardless of folded length.
G.=This is an SBR. Putting a stock on a pistol makes it now a rifle. With the short barrel, it is now a SBR. If the barrel was 16", then it could have the stock if it wished.
H.=This is another Title 1 weapon. The fact that it folds into a "pistol shape" keeps it out of AOW range. If it was fired without folding, or if it had a smooth bore, it would be an AOW.
I.=This is another Title1 weapon. Even though it may be an AR, it is still only a semi-auto without option 'A' installed. It should be noted, however, that simply owning both (if not registered) constitutes ownership of a machinegun, whether they are currently mated-up or not.

Discuss at will....

 

[RonPaulSupporter]

Cool quiz, I'm happy I got the DD right! Interesting stuff.

 

[shooter521]

The federal definition of AOW is:

"any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

Item B on your list is 1) a revolver, 2) designed to fire a fixed shotgun shell. This puts it in AOW land unless it has a rifled bore.

Federal definition of a Destructive Device reads, in part:
"any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes"

So am I correct in assuming that Item B a destructive Device simply by virtue of its bore size (greater than .50"), and that a DD classification trumps AOW?

 

[VUPDblue]

The federal definition of AOW is:

"any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

Item B on your list is 1) a revolver, 2) designed to fire a fixed shotgun shell. This puts it in AOW land unless it has a rifled bore.

Federal definition of a Destructive Device reads, in part:
"any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes"

So am I correct in assuming that Item B a destructive Device simply by virtue of its bore size (greater than .50"), and that a DD classification trumps AOW?

That's what I'm going on. The only way to truely tell would be to write the FTB and ask specifically. We've hashed this out many times over on TFL, and I can clearly understand the arguements for DD and for AOW. I tend to agree that it's a DD based solely on bore size and that BATFE would not find it suitable for 'sporting purposes'.

 

[bigcraig]

I still think B is an AOW, I also knew this one was your trick question.

IMHO, there is no difference between the "12ga revolver" in your example when compared to my Serbu, thus I think it is an AOW.

I like these little tests. I think the more of these we do bring to light the absolute stupidity that is the ATF FTB.

 

[INrange]

B=AOW
Destructive devices deal with bore size. The ammo has been deemed sporting. The revolver is much less destructive than the pump actions and semiautos the ATFE have already labeled as AOWs.

Useing the terms provided B is an AOW if it has a smoth bore barrel 12-18 inches long. If the atfe has deemed the weapon sporting than its not classified a destructive device. So if the revolver has a barrel under 12 inches or is rifled up to 18 inches and is deemed sporting it falls within neither an aow or dd.???

The ATFE decides ALL those words and terms are just used to confuse the rest of us.

 

[VUPDblue]

INrange, I don't disagree with you at all. It is all very subjective how ATF classifies something. Why the USAS and Striker were classed DD's, I will never understand. When Bigcraig gets his 20 round drum for his Saiga12 it will be basically a striker in a different uniform, but it won't be regulated (yet). My point in all this is that the "B" answer in my quiz fits both the DD and AOW definition. Must I get back on my soapbox again on why ATF needs a standardized set of definitions and oversight?

 

[INrange]

I have never heard of the striker or usas before. I think for various reasons new laws usually don't get put in the books. Then those responsible for creating laws pressure the batfe to do something. They have to work with what they have. Realy nice test/lesson for all of us, please keep them comming.

 

[JosephR]

The tricky part is that not every example will be an NFA item. I only want you to pick out and identify the NFA items

A: MG

B: AOW

C. Shotgun

D. Short Barreled Shotgun

E. SBR

F. Sounds like the OAL with stock extended might be too short and therefore make it an SBR even though the barrel is 16" I don't remember if 30 or 32 inches is minimum but I'm smart enough to know I'd need to check on this one

G. SBR

H. AOW

I. Rifle. Plain and simple. Option a is the MG.

The intent of this is to get you guys and gals thinking! It's only a couple words on some paper that make the difference between legal and illegal. I also hope this is educational and fun, but please try to keep your posts on-topic.

 

[-XL-]

A: MG
B: AOW
C: Pistol
D: SBS
E: SBS
F: SBR
G: SBR
H: AOW
I: MG

 

[pharmboy]

A = Machine gun(lightning link)

B = AOW

C = non-NFA item

D = Short-barreled shotgun

E = AOW...and a pretty neat one from the sound of it

F = non-NFA item

G = Short-barreled Rifle

H = non-NFA item...the R.J. Bravermann Pen Gun

I = w/out A, non-NFA item...with A, constructive intent, go directly to jail, do not pass go