What is your threshold?

[Fenway]

Is this the same Pami I know

In fact, if Lars tried to show me his and show me how to operate it, I would burst into tears. That's not him trying to get me to touch it, hold it, handle it.. just showing it to me made me cry. Uncontrollably. I'd go psychotic.

 

[Fenway]

I agree with Pami. Money might be tight but you came up with the cash to buy a gun. Now learn how to run it so that when the SHTF you will have a better chance to survive. If you simply can't right now make it a priority some time down the road when things are better financially!

I strongly, STRONGLY recommend you get her signed up for a basic pistol class. Even if it's just the NRA Basic Pistol class... they go over ALL the details, and it's really directed at the "I've never touch a gun in my life" type of student, although, as I said, even the "experienced" guys learned new things.

 

[Pami]

Is this the same Pami I know

I know.. you'd never guess, right?

 

[SavageEagle]

Bottom line: I know things are tight financially (trust me, we operate on a $0 budget, too, normally, and this is an expensive passion), but you have to find a way to get at least one basic pistol class in for BOTH of you.

My $0.02.

Trust me I would LOVE to sign up for a class because I know I have a lot to learn. But i run on a LESS than $0 budget. But I'm scrounging back money in a savings account for just this kinda thing. I think i have 50 bucks. LOL All joking aside, I'm not here thinking I'm better than anyone, especially my fiance, I'm not. She has the stomach to be a professional Azz-wiper(CNA) and I can't even walk into a Nursing home with out geting sick! LOL But I am an Eagle Scout with much rifle training. But I do need much pistol training and so does my girl. So if anyone would like to help train us for little to nothing that would be awesome! I do build computers and would only charge parts costs for some training. Otherwise I have nothing to offer! LOL

 

[Sailor]

That's just not a possibility where I would be postitioned and everything else in the house sits.

The one thing I have learned from spending time with guys who actually know and have experience on this topic is that things rarely go down like you plan.

It is tempting to plan out scenarios in our heads, but that is not realistic. You are going to have to rely on the instincts you have developed from your training.

 

[Shay]

techincally, I said untrained civilian. Police are WELL trained... or so they SHOULD be.

This may be a controversial thing to say, but I'll go ahead and throw it out there. Most police training is not great quality and more based on liability reduction than true officer survival.

 

[Shay]

The one thing I have learned from spending time with guys who actually know and have experience on this topic is that things rarely go down like you plan.

It is tempting to plan out scenarios in our heads, but that is not realistic. You are going to have to rely on the instincts you have developed from your training.

Very well put.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

This may be a controversial thing to say, but I'll go ahead and throw it out there. Most police training is not great quality and more based on liability reduction than true officer survival.

To be honest... this isn't that far from the truth.

As a former Army Guard instructor myself, I noticed that a LOT of my students didn't know their hind end from a hole in the ground when it came to basic pistol operations, tactics, and proper employment of both. Those people that actually knew and understood half of what I tried to teach in my BASIC classes were people that were veterans of 10+ years AND those who spent their own money in personal training 2-3 times a year. You have to have time and opportunity to employ the knowledge to practical situational training.

Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect.

Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong.

Which would you rather be?

 

[Wabatuckian]

Ok folks, I'm likely gonna get sniped at here, but I'll give you some thoughts I've had for a while.

Practical firearms have only been around since the 15th Century or so. After they were adopted by the militaries of the world, mostly volley fire and bayonet charges were taught - to the military.

After private citizens began getting their hands on them, I've not been able to find any reference to training them on any sort of regular basis. It seems most got their training by hunting and such.

Moving into the mid to late 19th Centuries, practical repeaters became available. Still, I can't find any reference to any formal training for the citizenry. Outside of the military and militias, the closest thing to training I've found has been shooting contests.

Serious pistoleros and such shot at posts. For example, Wild Bill Hickok would empty his Navy revolvers at fence posts or trees or whatnot every night, then clean and reload them.

Training outside of the military only seems to have become available around 1925, with widespread training not being available to private citizens (nor really desired by same) until the mid to latter half of the 20th Century.

I've really just come to the conclusion that it's nice to have, but it's not a requirement.

What's more important than training is regular practice and familiarity with your firearm. Both breed more confidence than any three day course (not trying to step on anyone's toes here.)

I believe that's what's CRITICAL.

As I said, training is nice to have, and if you want it fairly cheaply, the NRA does do defensive handgun classes and they're usually pretty close by to where you're at.

Being an Eagle Scout, you might look into Explorer Scouts as well, with the local PD or Sheriff's Dept. They will usually include handgun instruction in their curriculum.

Since I just got up, let me summarize this so as to be 100% clear on what I'm saying: Training is good. I don't believe, anymore, that it's 100% necessary, as long as you take the time to become familiar with your sidearm and devote time and money to practice. I'm talking at least 100 rounds per week here, though 50 rounds per day would be preferable (and is what I personally try to do, finances permitting.)

If you want to test your skills, find a local IDPA match. I've only run one, didn't do too bad. And, if it's true to IDPA stock form, it'll give you an idea of where you stand. Remember, we're talking stock guns and gear here, not race guns. Additionally, the scenarios are a bit more realistic.

I was talking to the owner of Bass'n'Bucks here in Wabash and he's going to try to hold an IDPA match or two this summer. I'm looking forward to it. Competition forces the adrenaline up and makes you deal with it, and control yourself in whatever situation you end up in.

I really hope this wasn't too disjointed. I quit coffee a couple years ago and I'm still not woke up yet!

NRA training in Indiana: Find A Local NRA Safety Course

Josh <><

 

[SavageEagle]

Being an Eagle Scout, you might look into Explorer Scouts as well, with the local PD or Sheriff's Dept. They will usually include handgun instruction in their curriculum.

You are right about their curriculum. Although the age ranges are somewhere around the 16-20yo range. After that the best you can hope for is assistant scout leader. Which I highly recommend anyone to do. Supporting your local Troop(s) is a great way to help shape our future!

BTW, I'm sorry for the ! please dont me! LOL

 

[Sailor]

Training is good. I don't believe, anymore, that it's 100% necessary, as long as you take the time to become familiar with your sidearm and devote time and money to practice. I'm talking at least 100 rounds per week here, though 50 rounds per day would be preferable

Sorry I disagree. With out training first you are wasting your 50 bullets a day. First you need someone to show you what critical skills you need to learn, then practice them.

Being familiar with your gun wont help you do one handed mag, changes because your other arm has been shot.

I have only had my carry gun for a year, and I practice a lot, but I have since realized I have been shooting a lot and training very little.

 

[Ri22o]

Sorry I disagree. With out training first you are wasting your 50 bullets a day. First you need someone to show you what critical skills you need to learn, then practice them.

Being familiar with your gun wont help you do one handed mag, changes because your other arm has been shot.

I have only had my carry gun for a year, and I practice a lot, but I have since realized I have been shooting a lot and training very little.

I agree. Those 50 rounds you shoot a day could go towards a class and training.

You could go to the batting cages and swing at 50 baseballs everyday, but if no one is there to tell you that you need to bring your foot back 2" and straighten up, then you are not only wasting your money, but you are also learning bad habits that would end up costing you more in the long run because they are memorized by your body and you need to unlearn them.

 

[Sailor]

and because of my precious cargo I avoided confrontation.

I try to avoid confrontation regardless of my cargo. Especially when I have a weapon on me.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

I have to be blunt. I respect your opinion, but I heartily disagree. There's a HUGE difference between practice and training. Practice is the working/reworking of individual skills whereas Training is putting those skills to use in real-life practical scenarios. People default to their lowest level of training. If people knew only individual skills, and not trained how to employ them... then those individual skills are worthless.

I've really just come to the conclusion that it's nice to have, but it's not a requirement.

What's more important than training is regular practice and familiarity with your firearm. Both breed more confidence than any three day course (not trying to step on anyone's toes here.)

I believe that's what's CRITICAL.

Familiarity of your weapon IS critical. It should grow to become an extension of yourself. However, there are things with your weapon that you can't just practice. Weak-side shooting, one-handed reloads, no-handed weapon charging, etc. Those skills have to be taught. Can you practice those? Yes. Using them practically REQUIRES training. Situational Awareness, Cover/Concealment, learning "threshold" (Yes, it CAN be taught), and learning defensive tactics requires TRAINING. Some people just don't think of that stuff themselves.

Since I just got up, let me summarize this so as to be 100% clear on what I'm saying: Training is good. I don't believe, anymore, that it's 100% necessary, as long as you take the time to become familiar with your sidearm and devote time and money to practice. I'm talking at least 100 rounds per week here, though 50 rounds per day would be preferable (and is what I personally try to do, finances permitting.)

Oh, to have the money and time... I would love to have that, too.

Believe me when I say I speak from experience. I have had people come into my instruction that knew nothing, or thought they knew everything, and I helped them develop into a better shooter and tactician. I personally, didn't know that much when I started. I had to be taught. I developed skills, and I developed bad habits. Training helped me find and eliminate bad habits before I took them to the battlefield.

Also, having a competent instructor TRAINING you is a great way to fix bad habits and make yourself better. You won't see them because you may not know any better. Having someone there to correct your flaws can VASTLY help you in the long run.

My $.02 and years of training experience. Hope I didn't step on your toes too much.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Silent,

No, you didn't step on my toes at all.

There are certain things which I do see training as being necessary for, and you list most of them.

My statement doesn't mean that I was never trained to reload, or that I don't practice it. Neither does it mean that I was only trained to shoot at three yards. Far from it. My practice ranges are 1, 3, 7, 15 and 25 yards. I was taught cover and such as well, and practice it.

Yes, I've been to school

Ok, now, my point revolves around the 'typical' private citizen defense scenario: fast, dirty and done. I've never heard of a private citizen having to reload, for example. I really am beginning to think that the average Joe would be pretty well prepared if he trained to draw and fire two or three shots into the A zone. In other words, if he learns to hit the target, he's 99.9% there. The "fancy stuff" is reserved for that other 0.1% of the time when things get drawn out for whatever reason.

At any rate, why do we need training now, when we didn't back before say, the 1970s?

Even if you don't agree, are you seeing where I'm coming from? In other words, am I being clear?

Josh <><

P.S. I'm a CQC instructor, or at least I'm certified to be one. Bare hand, knives, other weapons. Haven't done much with firearms as I was never certified by anyone to teach them. Some of the things which cross over, like situational awareness, verbal de-escalation, disparity of force, etc I guess maybe I take for granted anymore as being common sense when I write about this stuff. Looking at it, knowing that's how I think, I maybe figure most people think that way. It'd be foreign to me if they didn't. Dunno. J.S.

 

[Wabatuckian]

The above is all assuming that the shooting was called for in the first place. J.S.

 

[Thickburger]

i have to step in for a second here. you can practice and rationalize all you want but it really does come down to reaction and instinct. i thought i was pretty well prepared in scenario before i took Fighting Pistol with Shay but after about 3hrs in the 1st day you realize how almost everything you know is wrong.

Shay's classes are VERY intense and don't go as smoothly as an IDPA match. they are about constant awareness and being able to react quickly and under stress.

you think you are ready? try imagining Shay and another adult man wrestling with you and yelling while you need to empty a magazine into a target 6" away a quickly as possible then reload and be ready again. just the concussion from the firearm at that distance is a surprise but all of that combined is enough to really rattle your cage.

*disclaimer. i am NOT advising anyone try the above scenario w/o proper training and supervision. i'm just using that as an example as one of the Tactical Response training drills in the Fighting Pistol class. it is a very dangerous drill and there are several precautions taken during the class in case something does go wrong.

 

[Wabatuckian]

you think you are ready? try imagining Shay and another adult man wrestling with you and yelling while you need to empty a magazine into a target 6" away a quickly as possible then reload and be ready again. just the concussion from the firearm at that distance is a surprise but all of that combined is enough to really rattle your cage.

Agreed it's tough. That's the reason you try not to get into that situation in the first place.

My point is that 99.9% of the time, a scenario like that won't happen even if you are attacked. If it did happen to me in that fashion, my number one priority would be weapon retention. Or so I've been trained.

If you're going to be intentionally in harm's way, then by all means, yes, you need to be trained like that. But as private citizens it's our duty to retreat - if not legally, then perhaps morally, if nobody would be in danger through inaction.

you can practice and rationalize all you want but it really does come down to reaction and instinct.

Exactly. And my point is that since it is reaction and instinct, you're going to have a lot of adrenaline going, cutting out fine motor skills. Thus, it would probably be a good idea to shoot under stress to try to simulate that as closely as possible.

I think you misunderstood something I wrote earlier: I don't believe IDPA is training. I think that you can get an idea of where you stand when compared to others using competition, but it's not a means of training at all.

The bottom line is that you don't know how you're going to react unless you've been there, no matter how much training you've had. The training only gives a rough outline. Things happen fast and you react to them. Beyond that, I'm not willing to go into first person real world encounters at this point.

Josh <><

 

[Shay]

Josh,

What formal training have you had?

 

[SilentWarrior1]

Clear as mud.

Seriously though, Another preset to training is learning new ideas to situations you may have not thought of.

My school of training is very combat-oriented, where firefights are expected to be drawn out, high volume, and very tense. Where the schools of thought differ, I can see where some of that might not be necessary, or at least percieved to be. It's not at all fancy... actually, it's "dig-into-the-dirt and move when it's tactically sound and/or necessary" training.

Whereas that might not be as necessary as someone who carries around town and encounters a mugger or something. Those types of situations are quick and over within 2-3 shots. Learning how to "dig-in and provide suppressive fire" would be as prudent.

I've been meaning to save some money for training that's more civillian-oriented. Just not had the chance.