What kind of LTCH do I need?

[INGunGuy]

No I am not.

You're getting hung up on what is referred too as a "legislative drafting error" .. simply because they included some of the possible to/from combination's but neglectfully (not intentionally) left out other possible to/from combination's of the same, however even as poorly written as the statute is .. the "legislative intent" is still very clear that the lawful owner of a handgun may legally transport their handgun (in the manner described, without a LTCH) to/from their residence to/from their fixed place of business & to/from a place of repair.

Go ahead and be the test case on that one. I can tell you this as per IC, you can NOT transport between home and work without a LTCH, PERIOD.

INGunGuy

 

[RichardR]

Go ahead and be the test case on that one. I can tell you this as per IC, you can NOT transport between home and work without a LTCH, PERIOD.

INGunGuy

Like I said the statute was poorly written, I will attempt to rehash your interpretation of the statute real quick so you can see what I am talking about.

It is lawful for the handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from their home & a place of repair.

It is lawful for the handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from their fixed place of business & a place of repair.

It is lawful for the handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from their residence to a new residence.

It is lawful for the handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from their fixed place of business to a new fixed place of business.

It is lawful for the handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from a place of repair to their residence.

It is lawful for the handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from a place of repair to their fixed place of business.

It is lawful for the handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from a place of purchase to their residence.

It is lawful for the handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from a place of purchase to their fixed place of business.

It is unlawful (because it wasn't specifically mentioned in the statute) for the handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from their residence to a fixed place of business.

It is unlawful (because it wasn't specifically mentioned in the statute) for the handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from their fixed place of business to their residence.

But it is lawful for a handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from their residence to a place of repair & then to/from a fixed place of business.

But it is lawful for a handgun owner to transport their handgun to/from their fixed place of business to a place of repair & then to/from their residence.

The person responsible for drafting that statute neglectfully (not purposefully) failed to specify that to/from residence/fixed place of business exemption, causing what is known as a "legislative drafting error".

And in the event of a "legislative drafting error" the "legislative intent" prevails.

 

[INGunGuy]

And are you giving probono legal advice?

INGunGuy

 

[rmabrey]

You can transport without a license from your home to YOUR fixed place of business, meaning a business you OWN

 

[RichardR]

And are you giving probono legal advice?

INGunGuy

Nope, I am just trying to clarify a common misconception, caused by a poorly written statute.

 

[merkava1]

In Indiana you can transport your gun, but only inoperable (there may be a finer legal term). That being unloaded, action open, padlocked, no ammo in the same compartment, locked in the safe or trunk, concealed from plain view, yada yada, in short rendered impossible to discharge.

I agree that if you have a job and a family and know other ways of getting the adrenaline rush, testing law enforcement is a dumb project. They have lawyers too (heck, they are lawyers).

 

[sj kahr k40]

In Indiana you can transport your gun, but only inoperable (there may be a finer legal term). That being unloaded, action open, padlocked, no ammo in the same compartment, locked in the safe or trunk, concealed from plain view, yada yada, in short rendered impossible to discharge. .

I'll assume you a talking about a handgun, you CANNOT transport a handgun the way you describe unless you have a LTCH, if you have a target-hunting LTCH you might be right, with an unlimited LTCH you can carry fully loaded in plain view on your body.

 

[merkava1]

You cannot carry a handgun on or about your person, if you have been convicted of domestic battery (IC 35-47-2-1).

This restriction does not apply to "any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his dwelling (...) or a place of repair". (IC 35-47-2-2). Like I said... Now the law apparently leaves it up for interpretation what a secure wrapper is. If I did not possess a LTCH, that would be a locked handgun safe in the trunk.

Speaking of LTCH, I've never heard of a "target-hunting" variety. Unless you mean a hunting license or permit. But that is not a license to carry.

 

[sj kahr k40]

You cannot carry a handgun on or about your person, if you have been convicted of domestic battery (IC 35-47-2-1).

This restriction does not apply to "any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his dwelling (...) or a place of repair". (IC 35-47-2-2). Like I said... Now the law apparently leaves it up for interpretation what a secure wrapper is. If I did not possess a LTCH, that would be a locked handgun safe in the trunk.

Speaking of LTCH, I've never heard of a "target-hunting" variety. Unless you mean a hunting license or permit. But that is not a license to carry.

If you are talking about from place of purchase to your home or fixed place of business
you would be correct, but I didn't see that part in your first post, reading it I thought you were saying you could carry it anywhere as long as it in a secure wrapper

Maybe I'm misreading your first post

There are actually two different LTCH's in Indiana, the first is what is called a "qualified" or hunting/target LTCH, which allows you to carry &/or transport handguns to & from hunting or range trips, the second is what's called "unlimited" or personal protection LTCH and allows you to carry anywhere for any reason.

 

[merkava1]

I'll be darn... My LTCH does not say unlimited or anything. Section 2 says dwelling, business, or place of repair. If you have not been convicted of domestic battery (Sec 1), I don't see why you need any exemptions as listed in Section 2. Just going to the range officer. But I see your point. There are many holes in the statute, some of them deliberate. When in doubt I'd pick up the phone and call Indiana State Police and the local sheriff with the same question. Interesting discussion. There is a book on Indiana Handgun Laws by an Indy lawyer named Ciouy, picked it up at Indy 1500, very reasonable.

 

[rmabrey]

There is a book on Indiana Handgun Laws by an Indy lawyer named Ciouy, picked it up at Indy 1500, very reasonable.

yes he is a member here

 

[cartmanfan15]

I just got a lifetime LTCH. Seemed easier and would help avoid all these technicalities that would only allow you to take your handgun to certain places. Besides schools and all that that are listed in the exceptions.

 

[INGunGuy]

Nope, I am just trying to clarify a common misconception, caused by a poorly written statute.

Are you a practicing lawyer in the state of Indiana?

INGunGuy

 

[Timjoebillybob]

The person responsible for drafting that statute neglectfully (not purposefully) failed to specify that to/from residence/fixed place of business exemption, causing what is known as a "legislative drafting error".

And in the event of a "legislative drafting error" the "legislative intent" prevails.

How do you know that the person who drafted that statute did not purposefully fail to specify that? And if it was just neglect, why hasn't it been fixed in the years since? It's been what almost 30 years since that section of code was written? Heck IN new liquor ID law wasn't even in effect when the legislation stated that how it was written wasn't what was intended. And that they plan on changing it when they go back into session. But currently it is still the law and I would bet that any retailer who goes against it and it caught doing so will be prosecuted and probably lose.

I'll be darn... My LTCH does not say unlimited or anything. Section 2 says dwelling, business, or place of repair. If you have not been convicted of domestic battery (Sec 1), I don't see why you need any exemptions as listed in Section 2. Just going to the range officer

Check bottom right where it says "license type" Mine says lifetime pers. protection. The ISP doesn't use the same language on the license as is in IN Code, they use hunting and target and personal protection instead of qualified and unlimited. As for the "just going to the range officer" See this thread
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._self_defense/25254-asking_for_your_help.html

Speaking of LTCH, I've never heard of a "target-hunting" variety. Unless you mean a hunting license or permit. But that is not a license to carry.

You may not have heard of it because it is a rare beast, about .3% of licenses are hunting and target.
Indianapolis Star Jumps on the Concealed Carry Permit Database Bandwagon - Gun Rights - Zimbio

IC 35-47-2-4
Qualified or unlimited licenses to carry handguns; fees; exemptions from payment of fees
Sec. 4. (a) Licenses to carry handguns shall be either qualified or unlimited, and are valid for:
(1) four (4) years from the date of issue in the case of a four (4) year license; or
(2) the life of the individual receiving the license in the case of a lifetime license.
A qualified license shall be issued for hunting and target practice. The superintendent may adopt rules imposing limitations on the use

Indiana Code 35-47-2

 

[finity]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that you do not need a license if you are transporting a firearm as long as it is to the range and then back to your home. This is as long as the weapon is stored seperately from the ammo in seperate locations such as the trunk and glove box. This is the first Ive head of the target/hunting license.

Sorry. You are wrong.

You can only carry (in a secure wrapper):

1. from place of purchase to YOUR residence or YOUR business

2. from your residence or business & back again.

3. if you relocate your residence or business to another location.

That's it.

If you are doing anything other than the above & the gun is not on your property then you are breaking the law.

Good question Hick, I'll try to clarify it for everyone ... there is a difference between the "use of deadly force" & "pointing a firearm" - they are not one & the same and there are some differences in how one or the other can be used, most folks already have read the deadly force statutes so I'll stick with the act of "pointing a firearm"..

Ok the first thing that everyone should know is that much like the use of deadly force the act of "pointing a firearm" is normally a criminal offense, however it is considered "reasonable force" when the act of "pointing a firearm" is used to protect persons or property or to affect an arrest, I will post the statutes so everyone can read them for themselves.

IC 35-47-4-3
Pointing firearm at another person
Sec. 3. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting within the scope of the law enforcement officer's official duties or to a person who is justified in using reasonable force against another person under:
(1) IC 35-41-3-2; or
(2) IC 35-41-3-3.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally points a firearm at another person commits a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if the firearm was not loaded.


IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
(b) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
(c) With respect to property other than a dwelling, curtilage, or an occupied motor vehicle, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
only if that force is justified under subsection (a).

IC 35-41-3-3
Use of force relating to arrest or escape
Sec. 3. (a) A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person's escape if:
(1) a felony has been committed; and
(2) there is probable cause to believe the other person committed that felony.
However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under section 2 of this chapter.

I hope that cleared up any confusion.

That's all well & good & at one time I would have fully agreed with you but...

There is case law that says pointing a firearm is using deadly force whether it is fired or not.

Converted file par

That case states that pointing a firearm is not reasonable force it is deadly force & you must meet the criteria for using deadly force before you even just point the firearm at someone (reasonable fear of death or SBI, etc).

You can transport without a license from your home to YOUR fixed place of business, meaning a business you OWN

No you can't.

Once you buy the gun & either take it home or to your business it's stuck there (unless you need to get it repaired or are relocating) UNLESS you have an unlimited LTCH.

In Indiana you can transport your gun, but only inoperable (there may be a finer legal term). That being unloaded, action open, padlocked, no ammo in the same compartment, locked in the safe or trunk, concealed from plain view, yada yada, in short rendered impossible to discharge.

NO you can't.

See above.

No I am not.

Yeah, I'd pretty much say you are.

You're getting hung up on what is referred too as a "legislative drafting error" .. simply because they included some of the possible to/from combination's but neglectfully (not intentionally) left out other possible to/from combination's of the same, however even as poorly written as the statute is .. the "legislative intent" is still very clear that the lawful owner of a handgun may legally transport their handgun (in the manner described, without a LTCH) to/from their residence to/from their fixed place of business & to/from a place of repair.

The way I read it is pretty straight foward. They didn't give examples. they laid it out very plainly.

See INGunGuy's post above to reread the IC. If you don't meet one of those three specific circumstances then you can't carry off your property. Period.

Do you have a legislative history or a court case that backs up what you are saying? If so we'd all love to see it.

Otherwise it's not good to tell someone they can do something that is most likely illegal.

 

[merkava1]

So there is a target license, market share 0.3%. Thanks!

To all: the statutes are hardly ever cut and dried, that's how lawyers stay in business, and we have blogs.

Can anyone point to a case in Indiana where a citizen got arrested and convicted specifically and only for carrying a handgun in a secure wrapper to a shooting range [and every range is a veritable place of repair]. The citizen not being wanted, nor on probation, nor with a prior conviction. Not a second cousin's buddy either. Documented public records.

 

[RichardR]

Are you a practicing lawyer in the state of Indiana?

No I am not now, nor have I ever been an attorney, so no-one should spam my inbox with a bunch of questions looking for free legal advice.

How do you know that the person who drafted that statute did not purposefully fail to specify that? And if it was just neglect, why hasn't it been fixed in the years since?

I know it was neglectful & not purposeful because it would conflict with this federal law:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]§ 178.38 Transportation of firearms.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] such person may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where such person may lawfully[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] container other than the glove compartment or console.[/FONT]

For those who don't know "NOTWITHSTANDING" is legalese for/means "in spite of" or "regardless of" which means you can lawfully transport a handgun even through the City of Chicago without a FOID & in spite of handguns being banned there.

There is case law that says pointing a firearm is using deadly force whether it is fired or not.

An incident of statutory/judicial misinterpretation does not rise to the level of "case law", the statute specifically states what "pointing of a firearm" is & how it may or may not be done lawfully.

That case states that pointing a firearm is not reasonable force it is deadly force & you must meet the criteria for using deadly force before you even just point the firearm at someone (reasonable fear of death or SBI, etc).

Here in Indiana the statute clearly states a firearm may be lawfully pointed at another person in defense of property or in order to affect a citizens arrest, it also specifically states when the use of deadly force may or may not be lawful, the two are separately statutory defined uses of force, with separate "reasonableness" requirements.

No you can't. Yes you can.

Once you buy the gun & either take it home or to your business it's stuck there (unless you need to get it repaired or are relocating) UNLESS you have an unlimited LTCH. This is incorrect.

NO you can't. Yes, yes you can.

See above. No you see above.

Yeah, I'd pretty much say you are. No you are.

The way I read it is pretty straight foward. They didn't give examples. they laid it out very plainly.

See INGunGuy's post above to reread the IC. If you don't meet one of those three specific circumstances then you can't carry off your property. Period. Incorrect.

Do you have a legislative history or a court case that backs up what you are saying? If so we'd all love to see it. Yes, yes I do please read the federal law in red & bold that I posted up above.

Otherwise it's not good to tell someone they can do something that is most likely illegal. Agreed, please stop.

I hope this clarified this issue for everyone.

 

[INGunGuy]

No I am not now, nor have I ever been an attorney, so no-one should spam my inbox with a bunch of questions looking for free legal advice.



I know it was neglectful & not purposeful because it would conflict with this federal law:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]§ 178.38 Transportation of firearms.[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] such person may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where such person may lawfully[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] container other than the glove compartment or console.[/FONT]

For those who don't know "NOTWITHSTANDING" is legalese for/means "in spite of" or "regardless of" which means you can lawfully transport a handgun even through the City of Chicago without a FOID & in spite of handguns being banned there.



I hope this clarified this issue for everyone.

Unfortunately you did not clarify anything. The only thing you have done is to muddy the questions and answers that have been given. Since you are NOT a practicing attorney or even a lawyer, I hate to be blunt with this, but YOU ARE COMPLETELY INCORRECT! You are correct in reference to 178.38 which is for INTERSTATE transport of firearms. And transporting a firearm this way as one would PASS THRU Indiana would be completely legal. We are NOT talking about transporting thru Indiana, we are talking about transporting throughout Indiana. More specifically as you have stated, from home to work and back again. Since IC gives no caveat to transportation OTHER than from purchase location to home or fixed place of business, or back and forth to the gunsmith, or when moving from a home or business to another then you are INCORRECT in your ASSUMPTION that IC allows carry from home to work and back. Nothing in the IC has this caveat. You assertions about legislative intent or legislative drafting errors are just that YOUR assertions, and NOT IC. Please read the IC's and before giving out BAD legal advice understand how the law in Indiana works. I am sorry to be so blunt about this, but there have been discussions on top of discussions about Indiana code, and the way the IC's are written, you cant transport a handgun in Indiana for any reason other than the 3 listed in the IC's

Oh, and no, I am not a lawyer, and I am not offering pro-bono legal advice, but I am able to read, and understand the IC's and how they affect transportation of firearms within Indiana.

INGunGuy

 

[RichardR]

Unfortunately you did not clarify anything. it is not my fault if you are still confused.

The only thing you have done is to muddy the questions and answers that have been given. Since you are NOT a practicing attorney or even a lawyer, I hate to be blunt with this, but YOU ARE COMPLETELY INCORRECT! You are the one who is incorrect.

You are correct in reference to 178.38 which is for INTERSTATE transport of firearms. The federal statute does not say "INTERSTATE TRANSPORT ONLY" (see below).

And transporting a firearm this way as one would PASS THRU Indiana would be completely legal. We are NOT talking about transporting thru Indiana, we are talking about transporting throughout Indiana. This is incorrect.

More specifically as you have stated, from home to work and back again. Since IC gives no caveat to transportation OTHER than from purchase location to home or fixed place of business, or back and forth to the gunsmith, or when moving from a home or business to another then you are INCORRECT in your ASSUMPTION that IC allows carry from home to work and back. Nothing in the IC has this caveat. You assertions about legislative intent or legislative drafting errors are just that YOUR assertions, and NOT IC. Please read the IC's and before giving out BAD legal advice understand how the law in Indiana works. I am sorry to be so blunt about this, but there have been discussions on top of discussions about Indiana code, and the way the IC's are written, you cant transport a handgun in Indiana for any reason other than the 3 listed in the IC's I am not the one responsible for writing the poorly written statute which has caused all of the confusion.

Oh, and no, I am not a lawyer, and I am not offering pro-bono legal advice, but I am able to read, and understand the IC's and how they affect transportation of firearms within Indiana. Obviously you do not.

INGunGuy

§ 178.38 Transportation of firearms.
Notwithstanding any other provision
of any law or any rule or regulation of
a State or any political subdivision
thereof, any person who is not otherwise
prohibited by this chapter from
transporting, shipping, or receiving a
firearm shall be entitled to transport a
firearm for any lawful purpose from
any place where such person may lawfully
possess and carry such firearm to
any other place where such person may
lawfully possess and carry such firearm
if, during such transportation the firearm
is unloaded, and neither the firearm
nor any ammunition being transported
is readily accessible or is directly
accessible from the passenger.

I do not know how I can explain it any better, so if you are still confused then I am afraid that I simply cannot say anything further that would help you understand.

 

[INGunGuy]

§ 178.38 Transportation of firearms.
Notwithstanding any other provision
of any law or any rule or regulation of
a State or any political subdivision
thereof, any person who is not otherwise
prohibited by this chapter from
transporting, shipping, or receiving a
firearm shall be entitled to transport a
firearm for any lawful purpose from
any place where such person may lawfully
possess and carry such firearm to
any other place where such person may
lawfully possess and carry such firearm
if, during such transportation the firearm
is unloaded, and neither the firearm
nor any ammunition being transported
is readily accessible or is directly
accessible from the passenger.

I do not know how I can explain it any better, so if you are still confused then I am afraid that I simply cannot say anything further that would help you understand.

I am not attempting to be argumentative, but your assertions that federal transportation laws will cover an INDIANA citizen are INCORRECT for Intra-state transportation of a handgun. If a person were traveling THRU Indiana, and be legally able to carry a handgun in the location where they started, and the location where they end up, then yes federal interstate transportation laws would apply. This would NOT cover Intra-state transportation such as home to work, and back, or home to the range and back.

INGunGuy