When Buying an AR 15...

[Benny]

When Buying an M4(gery)

My apologies if this has been posted before, but the "I want an M4 type rifle, which one should I get?" thread comes up hourly, so I figured this may make your decision a bit easier:

(IMO, this should be a sticky in all rifle forums)

 

[AFA1CY]

That is really great!


(I have no idea what it means, but I am sure the information is great
-- non AR15 owner --)

 

[melensdad]

That is really great!

Well, not really.

That chart is specifically designed to highlight features on ONE type of AR15 but that ONE type of AR15 is really not well suited for civilian use if they value things like accuracy. I'm not saying that the chart should be ignored, if you want a near-mil-spec rifle then that is a good chart. But that chart only picks 1 rifle model from each manufacturer. For example it picked the Oly K3, which is a non-mil-spec budget gun, no wonder it doesn't stack up well on that chart. Stag Arms, OTOH, is considered one of the finest guns out there by gun writers and it looks pretty weak on the chart too. Bushmaster is currently making rifles that are held in pretty high regard, high enough that some of them are being used by our troops in Iraq but it certainly seems to be lacking many of the "critical" mil-spec parts. The chart is a good chart but don't take it to heart. Use it as a guide for only the "specific" rifle model shown for each of those brands and realize that each of the brands may make up a dozen different guns, spec'd for a dozen different jobs.

But what if you want a long range varmint gun? Or a highly accurate plinker? The 'critical' issue of the chrome lined barrel or mil-spec barrel steel all of a sudden become liabilities as opposed to desirable features.

The beauty of an AR is that it has evolved into a highly modifiable rifle. Nobody shooting for accuracy wants a chrome lined barrel, but in harsh military conditions it prevents problems. Most of us who are civilians want rifle accuracy because it is unlikely we will torture our guns.

I have a half dozen AR15s currently, not one of them is mil-spec. Some are long range specialized weapons. Some are just simple fun plinkers. One is bright pink. One is a pistol caliber carbine. One is even 'deer hunting' legal in the state of Indiana.

My very humble advice to people who want an AR15 is to figure out what task you want it to fill. After you figure out what you want to shoot, then start to look at the guns. Do you want a 223 plinker? (buy a cheap one like the Oly shown above) Do you want a highly accurate varmint round? (consider alternate calibers like the 204 Ruger, 6mmAR, etc then DPMS may have what you want) Do you want a highly accurate long range rifle (consider the 6.5 Grendel chambering that surpasses the 7.62 Nato ballistics at long range from Alexander Arms, Saber Defense or Les Behr) Want to use it to hunt deer legally in the state of Indiana? (buy one chambered for factory loaded 458 Socom from Rock River Arms or a Dedicated Technologies [DTech] 358 WSSM wildcat) Want to use it in a 3 gun match? (build it up for competition from parts or buy one designed to fit into the rules of the game) Want a long range deer/antelope AR? (buy one chambered in 243 WSSM or 25 WSSM from Olympic Arms, DTech or Accurate Arms) But if you buy any of these types of guns then realize that they will look pretty crappy based on the chart above. It won't matter that they will punch holes in targets at 1000 yards, or legally knock down deer in the Indiana woods, or make 400 yard clean kills on a hunting trip in the rocky mountains, it won't look good on the above chart.

 

[USPc40]

Well, not really.

That chart is specifically designed to highlight features on ONE type of AR15 but that ONE type of AR15 is really not well suited for civilian use if they value things like accuracy. I'm not saying that the chart should be ignored, if you want a near-mil-spec rifle then that is a good chart. But that chart only picks 1 rifle model from each manufacturer. For example it picked the Oly K3, which is a non-mil-spec budget gun, no wonder it doesn't stack up well on that chart. Stag Arms, OTOH, is considered one of the finest guns out there by gun writers and it looks pretty weak on the chart too. Bushmaster is currently making rifles that are held in pretty high regard, high enough that some of them are being used by our troops in Iraq but it certainly seems to be lacking many of the "critical" mil-spec parts. The chart is a good chart but don't take it to heart. Use it as a guide for only the "specific" rifle model shown for each of those brands and realize that each of the brands may make up a dozen different guns, spec'd for a dozen different jobs.

But what if you want a long range varmint gun? Or a highly accurate plinker? The 'critical' issue of the chrome lined barrel or mil-spec barrel steel all of a sudden become liabilities as opposed to desirable features.

The beauty of an AR is that it has evolved into a highly modifiable rifle. Nobody shooting for accuracy wants a chrome lined barrel, but in harsh military conditions it prevents problems. Most of us who are civilians want rifle accuracy because it is unlikely we will torture our guns.

I have a half dozen AR15s currently, not one of them is mil-spec. Some are long range specialized weapons. Some are just simple fun plinkers. One is bright pink. One is a pistol caliber carbine. One is even 'deer hunting' legal in the state of Indiana.

My very humble advice to people who want an AR15 is to figure out what task you want it to fill. After you figure out what you want to shoot, then start to look at the guns. Do you want a 223 plinker? (buy a cheap one) Do you want a highly accurate varmint round? (consider alternate calibers like the 204 Ruger, 6mmAR, etc) Do you want a highly accurate long range rifle (consider the 6.5 Grendel chambering that surpasses the 7.62 Nato ballistics at long range) Want to use it to hunt deer legally in the state of Indiana? (buy one chambered for factory loaded 458 Socom or a DTech 358 WSSM wildcat) Want to use it in a 3 gun match? (build it up for competition from parts or buy one designed to fit into the rules of the game) Want a long range deer/antelope AR? (buy one chambered in 243 WSSM or 25 WSSM) But if you buy any of these types of guns then realize that they will look pretty crappy based on the chart above. It won't matter that they will punch holes in targets at 1000 yards, or legally knock down deer in the Indiana woods, or make 400 yard clean kills on a hunting trip in the rocky mountains, it won't look good on the above chart.

 

[melensdad]

Thanks for the positive affirmation.

I've almost been in fights over this topic with some people and it simply doesn't make sense to me to buy 'mil spec' if you are not going to use the rifle for that purpose. Heck Remington is now offering AR rifles specifically for small game hunting. Bushmaster now offers a big game version with the 450 Bushmaster chambering that is great for hogs, black bear, and while not legal in Indiana, for deer. Rock River Arms and a few others are chambering the 458 Socom, which is Indiana whitetail deer legal. Alexander Arms offers the 50 Beowulf in a 'hunter' package for hunting hogs and bears. Rock River, DPMS and Olympic Arms offer some amazing long range packages in very untraditional cartridges from little 20 caliber bullets up to and including the high velocity WSSM rounds . . .

So all that said, why would we want to limit ourselves to 'mil spec' when that is designed for a combat environment, under combat abuse conditions???

 

[hunter480]

I bought my Bushmaster AR for one thing only-when the SHTF. It sits in my gunsafe, locked and loaded, and I hope I never need to pull it out, but it`s like my health and auto insurance. It`s there if it`s needed.

 

[rhino]

The chart is intended to help compare the features of rifles intended for use as weapons in the role that the M4 serves. It's really good for that.

 

[melensdad]

The chart is intended to help compare the features of rifles intended for use as weapons in the role that the M4 serves. It's really good for that.

Wouldn't it be even better if it showed where various features on some of the brands EXCEEDED mil-spec? Like the rifles with match grade stainless barrels. I'd think most users would consider that to be more desirable than a carbon steel barrel and certainly more accurate than a chrome lined barrel. Further, some of the chart features are purely subjective.

I don't consider to the chart to be 'really good' for much. There are too many well known brands excluded from the cart and too many models within the named brands that are also excluded.

 

[Benny]

I don't consider to the chart to be 'really good' for much.

Then move on and don't read it.

The chart is designed for exactly what rhino said; to break down the features of the most popular AR platform.

 

[melensdad]

Well it would be easier to move on if it had some additional disclaimers. For example the specific model Olympic Arms weapon is apparently penalized in that chart for having a higher quality stainless steel barrel. So the chart shows that it does not have "X" marks in the chrome lined chamber, chrome lined barrel and mil-spec steel barrel. In fact being stainless steel it is better than mil-spec on all 3 of those points. There are similar issues with the DPMS and Stag Arms weapons in various "critical" categories listed. So the chart is pretty misleading, and simply shows the bias of those who made the chart.

 

[NEOCON]

I think what would have been a better chart (a lot more work by the way) would be to list every model and its options. Not just possibly a base model against a top of the line mil spec rifle or a higher grade target/varmit model against a tactical entry weapon.
Although if you were considering buying a couple of the specific models in the chart it is really helpful. It is also very valuable to have someone that seems to know the technical aspects of the AR platform such as Melensdad around to share his knowledge. I know I have been kicking around the idea of building an AR. I have read some of Melensdad's posts and it has helped me a lot. I know I bought an AR several years ago at the Knob Creek machine gun shoot for an apparent bargain. It was a piece of crap for more than 1 reason. It was a Dolphan Arms brand I haven't seen any of them since.

 

[obijohn]

Wouldn't it be even better if it showed where various features on some of the brands EXCEEDED mil-spec? Like the rifles with match grade stainless barrels. I'd think most users would consider that to be more desirable than a carbon steel barrel and certainly more accurate than a chrome lined barrel. Further, some of the chart features are purely subjective.

I don't consider to the chart to be 'really good' for much. There are too many well known brands excluded from the cart and too many models within the named brands that are also excluded.

well that would be different chart, then wouldn't it?

you get 15 ar guys in a room and you'll have at least 25 opinions.

 

[melensdad]

you get 15 ar guys in a room and you'll have at least 25 opinions.

And that is why I don't much like "AR guys" but prefer to think of the AR as a modular weapon that can be adapted to specific uses and needs. I see the same arguments among tractor owners who demand their brand is best. With a rifle as versatile and useful as the AR15, the best way to buy one is to determine the INDIVIDUAL NEEDS you have for the gun, then buy the gun, or the individual upper & lower, that best suits your needs.

At one time I counted up about 30 different calibers that were chambered for the AR15. Some of them are pretty obscure, but some are very useful. There are at least a half dozen pistol caliber carbines out there made on the AR platform (4 most popular seem to be 9mm, 40s&w, 10mm, 45acp). And with rifle calibers the gamut runs from little 22lr to the 50BMG. Yes, I said 50BMG, at least 2 manufacturers are making uppers for the big Browning 50 although it doesn't feed as a semi-auto.

 

[Benny]

And with rifle calibers the gamut runs from little 22lr to the 50BMG. Yes, I said 50BMG, at least 2 manufacturers are making uppers for the big Browning 50 although it doesn't feed as a semi-auto.

What are you talking about? AR 50, yes. AR 15? LOL

.50 beowolf sure.

And that is why I don't much like "AR guys"

Then why are you here?

 

[melensdad]

What are you talking about? AR 50, yes. AR 15? LOL

.50 beowolf sure.

Joe, this just shows the ignorance of some of the AR15 folks who think that the AR15 is really just the M4 in 223. YES INDEED I am referring to AR15 upper receivers with 50BMG chambers!!! The big 50 caliber Browning Machine Gun round. There are several companies that are making uppers for the AR15 lower that are chambered in 50BMG. Do yourself a google search for these manufacturers: Bohinca Arms / Ferret Arms / Advanced Long Range Systems / L&G Weaponry All of them make/made a single shot upper receiver for the AR15 lower. It is a nifty way of owning a 50 caliber rifle without actually having to worry about a looming 50 caliber ban because upper receivers are NOT considered guns, they are considered parts. While you are looking up 50BMG conversions, here is a Bohinca 50BMG conversion for you to look at:

And yes, I did mention the 50 Beowulf from Alexander Arms. But there are 2 or 3 other 50 calibers that are chambered for the AR15 in addition to the 50 Beowulf. Oh, and by the way, the 50 Beowulf is actually just under 50 caliber.

Then why are you here?

Well I own a half dozen of them. But just because I own some does not mean that I consider myself a mall ninja or a tactical teddy type of guy. I can know something about a gun but not consider myself a fanatic to that weapon.

Here is a list I compiled some time ago, I am positive of one thing. It is incomplete!!! There are probably a dozen more calibers available by now. In BOLD type are the calibers that are commercially available from known manufacturers (meaning they are not custom builds)

.17 Remington
.20 Tactical
.204 Ruger
.221 Fireball
.222 Remington
.222 Remington Magnum
.223 Remington (5.56x45mm)
.223 Remington Ackley Improved
6x45mm
6mm Whisper
6.5mm Whisper
7mm Whisper
7mm TCU
.300 Whisper (.300/221, .300 Fireball)
.338 Whisper
223 WSSM
5.45x39mm (.21 Genghis)
243 WSSM
6mm PPC
6mm BR Remington
6.5mm PPC
6.5mm Grendel
25 WSSM
6.8x43mm SPC
300 Olympic Magnum (30 WSSM)
.30 Herrett Rimless Tactical (6.8x43mm case trimmed to 41mm and necked up to .308; the 6.8mm version of the .300 Whisper)
7.62x39mm
.357 Auto
358 WSSM wildcat
450 Bushmaster
.458 SOCOM
.50 Action Express
.50 Beowulf
50 BMG

AR-15 using a simple blowback operation
.17 HMR
.22 LR
.22 WMR
40S&W
10mm Auto
41 Action Express
9x19
9x21
9x23
357 Sig
45 GAP
45 ACP
30 Carbine

Oh, and at least one company is making a 410 shotgun upper receiver for the AR15!

 

[Benny]

Joe, this just shows the ignorance of some of the AR15 folks who think that the AR15 is really just the M4 in 223.

Mind showing me where anyone said this?

Yeah I didn't know you were talking about turning it into a bolt gun...There are more than 3.

I've been looking at the Bohica's myself...Good price, just a looong wait for one.

BTW, can you show me a link showing the .50 beowulf bullet diameter being smaller than .50...I'm not saying this is false, I am just unable to find it myself.

 

[melensdad]

BTW, can you show me a link showing the .50 beowulf bullet diameter being smaller than .50...I'm not saying this is false, I am just unable to find it myself.

Here is an article from Defense Review:

Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf: One Serious .499 Caliber Tactical Carbine.
Posted on Wednesday, August 06 @ 06:46:32 PDT by davidc

by David Crane
defrev at gmail.com

August 06, 2003

Let me say right off the bat that this gun doesn't just fill an existing niche. It, along with one other competing weapon(read "Addendum"), literally creates its own new niche. I'm talking about the .50 Beowulf "Entry" Carbine by Alexander Arms that I had the intense pleasure to shoot at SWAT Round-Up 2002 in early November of last year. Please allow me to describe the experience of firing this gun in one word: AWESOME.

The .50 Beowulf Entry carbine launches a 325-400 grain half-inch slug downrange at 1900-2000 fps. Now, without doing the actual math, that translates to some serious energy numbers. Suffice it to say, the .499 cal. is one powerful little pellet.

Recoil on the Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf was about the same as a 12-guage shotgun, however the .50 Beowulf has more energy and greater range than any 12-gauge slug gun. The .50 Beowfulf is also box magazine fed, so it can be reloaded more quickly than a tube-fed 12-gauge shotgun. The Beowulf utilizes a modified 30-round 4179 STANAG NATO-spec box magazine. These mags hold 7 rounds. With an additional round up the pipe, that gives the operator a total of 8 rounds before having to reload. That may not sound like a lot, but remember, we're talking about full half-inch of hand cannon. This gun is one shot per customer, folks.

The particular .50 Beowulf carbine we got a chance to run at SWAT Round-Up was was semi-auto only. It was also equipped with the excellent and now combat-proven Aimpoint CompM2 red dot optical gunsight. The Aimpoint allowed me to zero the gun quickly on the target while keeping both eyes open. We didn't really get a chance to test the gun for accuracy, but the gun seemed to put the rounds where we pointed it. We would have to do a much more extensive test to really comment on the .50 Beowulf's accuracy potential with any level of authority.

What we can comment on, however, is what it was like to fire this thing. I've got one word for ya'--FUN. Firing the .50 Beowulf Weapon System/Carbine is, to this day, one the most pleasurable experiences I've ever had sampling a weapon. It was nice and loud (just like a .499 cal weapon should be), and the gun gave such a reassuring rearward push upon firing, that I just had to smile. While the felt-recoil wasn't what I would necessarily call "light", it wasn't at all uncomfortable. I would say the recoil impulse was relatively light for such a powerful cartridge. A Defense Review associate who also fired a few half-inch projectiles downrange can attest to the same pleasurable experience. We both enjoyed the fact that when we pulled that trigger, we really felt like we were shooting something. It must be noted that the muzzle on our sample .50 Beowulf Entry Carbine was fitted with a compensator.

So, what's my analysis regarding the viability of the .499 cal. .50 Beowulf Entry for military Spec-Ops and LE SWAT use? I'm not quite sure yet. A .50 Beowulf Entry model might be a welcome tool if a unit had to go up against a well-armed and armored threat, or one barricaded behind a car or inside a dwelling of some kind, particularly if the good guys wanted to be able to put the threat down with one shot. For this use, I'd definitely want some rounds designed specifically for AP (Armor-Piercing) employment, although the standard rounds would probably still penetrate most vehicles and walls quite effectively. Anyway, that's the primary scenario I can see at the moment.

CQB (Close Quarters Battle) against a determined enemy or criminal subject wearing heavy body armor and/or hyped-up(on drugs) might be another niche use--especially if they're holed up inside a structure like a business building or bank.

The .50 Beowulf would appear to render body armor fairly irrelevant. Even if the .499 caliber round failed to penetrate the armor, who cares? That 325-400 grain round would hit the target with so much energy/force, it would probably take all the fight right out of the badguy, penetration or not.

What about the .50 Beowulf as a "homeland defense"/anti-terrorist/anti-riot tool for civilians? Well, all I can say is life is uncertain and precarious, so I give the .50 Beowulf the "thumbs up" for that role as well. It would absolutely intimidate the hell out of any mob that was previously intent on harming you or looting your home or business.

For just plain home defense against an armed intruder or multiple intruders, the Beowulf might be workable, provided you a)use lighter hollowpoint or frangible rounds that won't over-penetrate your intended target, b)none of your friends or loved ones are standing sitting, or sleeping anywhere behind the target, and c)you don't mind blowing your own eardrums out(it's LOUD, remember?).

O.k., maybe there are better choices out there for home defense.

I can guarantee the reader one thing: this gun is worth obtaining simply for the sole purpose and pleasure of recreational plinking. It's simply a BLAST to shoot--excuse the pun. And, the possibilities in terms of creative and safe inanimate targets, under well-controlled shooting conditions in the vast wide open spaces of the great outdoors, is virtually endless.

Oh, I almost forgot about hunting. I'm not a hunter, so I don't know what you could hunt with it. However, I'm sure that any experienced and proficient big game hunters reading this article can figure something out. I'm thinking elk or Grizzly bear. Mabe even Bison at close range, especially if you're shooting at them from horseback(I saw it in "Dances with Wolves", o.k.?)

DefRev will post the SWAT Round-Up pics on the .50 Beowulf Entry carbine as soon as we can. In the meantime, Bill Alexander, owner of Alexander Arms, can be reached via email at sales@alexanderarms.com, or by phone at 540-639 8356.

Click here to visit Alexander Arms' main page.

Click here to visit Aimpoint's website. DefRev highly recommends the Aimpoint CompM2 red dot optical gunsight to anyone interested in a top of the line tactical red dot site for CQB or recreational plinking. The Aimpoint CompM2 is the absolute state-of-the-art for red dot tube sights, and can be used in conjunction with weapon-mounted night vision scopes. Our other favorite optical sight for CQB and recreational plinking is the EOTech 552 Holographic Weapons Sight (HWS) a.k.a. Holographich Diffraction Sight (HDS). The EOTech 552 is currently the state-of-the-art in holographic sighting technology for small arms, and can also be used with night vision scopes. Both sights are available from Lightfighter.com. Lightfighter.com is one of the best sources for any type of professional-level tactical equipment.

Addendum: The competing weapon I mentioned at the beginning of this story is the phantom-like Leitner-Wise LW15.499 Mini-.50. Paul Leitner-Wise, the owner of the company, actually stated to the author that he would supply a Mini-.50 (along with some ammo) first for a DefRev review article, and then for a "Gun World" article that I was approved to write by that publication's editor, Jan Libourel. I was supposed to receive the Mini-.50 "within a couple of weeks." Well, it's now been over six months, and still no gun. This may not be Leitner-Wise's fault.

Recently, the author has learned (from a highly trusted industry source) that Leitner-Wise's failure to deliver a gun to us may be due to some kind of reliability/functioning or durability problems with the Mini-.50 that the company could be experiencing. However, to date, DefRev hasn't received any solid evidence, i.e. proof, of any problems with the Mini-.50. That said, DefRev also hasn't received any proof or confirmation that there are indeed any Mini-.50's currently employed by/deployed with any federal LE agencies or any branch or unit of the U.S. Armed Forces. We had heard reports that the the U.S. Coast Guard was purchasing a large number of Mini-.50's, but we don't know if any purchase contract actually went through, i.e if the U.S. Coast Guard actually has purchased and acquired any Mini-.50's to date.

For the record, DefRev hopes the Leitner-Wise Mini-.50 can indeed live up to all the hype that has surrounded it since it was first reported by Defense industry sources like AFJI(Armed Forces Journal International), because we believe the .499 caliber concept to be a viable one. We'll keep you posted.​

 

[VUPDblue]

...Then there's the .500 Phantom...

 

[bigcraig]

I wish this topic a long painful death.

1) Everyone should have a durable AR for SHTF purposes, this means that the little .mil-spec chart has some merit.

2) We civies have the ability to buy AR related components that exceed the .mil-spec.

3) As far as SS barrels being more accurate that chrome lined, well the chrome-lining process of yester-year is a quite a bit more refined that it was years ago. (In fact I own a Noveske SS chromed lined middy barrel, yes, you read that correctly.)

4) Most folks will not put enough rounds thru an AR to know the difference between what is .mil-spec and what is not .mil-spec.

5) Most folks WILL however be better served buying an AR that follows the .mil-spec closely. They tend to be a whole lot more reliable when NOT cared for correctly.

6) Wildcat chambered ARs are great guns, I have assembled a few uppers for friends and relatives for hunting purposes and they have all performed as the owners had wanted. But, 90% of the folks asking about getting their first AR SHOULD get and AR in the standard chambering.

To finish my little rant about this particular subject, I offer my humble opinion.

Every US citizen should have a battle ready AR, I feel it is your duty as a responsible American to do so.

Buy the best you can afford, as the best components usually cost more for a reason. (Yes, there are examples to the contrary, but not many.)

Learn to maintain it correctly.

Learn to use it correctly.

Stock up on ammo and mags.

Once you have your SHTF AR figured out, and have the spare parts, mags and ammo, then, and only then, should folks start to dabble with the other caliber and options that are available in the AR platform.

So folks, when a noob asks about getting their first AR, lets try and steer those folks to quality gear. You see, once these folks get a quality weapon, they WILL branch out to the "wild" side of the AR platform without any help from us, trust me.

 

[obijohn]

well said, big craig. and there a a couple of folks here that need to take a deep breath. wow. can't we all just get along?