Zimmerman Case: The Five Principles of the Law of Self Defense

[Jack Burton]

A nice overview of what constitutes self defense by one of the leading lawyers on the subject.

Zimmerman Case: The Five Principles of the Law of Self Defense

 

[92ThoStro]

I like this comment

The prosecutor in this case may very well make exactly that argument. As they say in legal circles: “If the facts are on your side, pound the facts. If the law is on you side, pound the law. If neither is on your side . . . pound the table.”

So far it appears that the State has neither the law nor the facts on its side. Commence table pounding.

The argument you describe would be an excellent example of “pounding the table.” Completely irrelevant in terms of the law, but appealing to the LIO–low-information observer–and the many outside provocateurs driving the “hang Zimmerman” narrative.

I would be speechless if GZ gets convicted of even manslaughter, and I don't think it would even be possible to lose on the first appeal.

 

[STEEL CORE]

Excellent link Jack, thanks!

 

[cobber]

Maybe the prosecutrix will do an in-court demo. Have one of the bailiffs pin her down, wail away MMA-style, break her nose and pound her head against the floor, and she will demonstrate how she could have used her free hand to terminate the event without resorting to a weapon.

 

[wcd]

Reality is that no one knows unless they were there. However given the what is known if he was told to cease following and ignored it, he would have never been in the situation t begin with. In my opinion for what it is worth he manufactured his own problem. That is not to say that he did not have the right to defend himself but it appears that a little thought process would have changed the whole outcome.

 

[j706]

I like the comment section of the RP's post made by archer52
Sounds like a guy that knows what he is talking about IMO.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I like the comment section of the RP's post made by archer52
Sounds like a guy that knows what he is talking about IMO.

Sounds about right to me

archer52 | June 9, 2013 at 9:16 pm
Being a retired veteran detective from Florida and working a number of gang related attacks I can say a couple of things here.

1. Zimmerman’s arrest was political. The first I’d seen in my 20 yrs of policing. It was not only political but overtly political, as in “you can’t stop us because we have the authority”. Scott flinched when the race baiting threat was raised and sent Blondi who sent Corey (who has a Lois Lerner approach to the law) to do the deed. I read the PC statement. My ex-partner read the PC statement. In Florida law you have to have PC to make the arrest. There was none there and in fact exculpatory evidence was intentionally left out of the statement- a direct violation of Florida law. If a regular police detective was caught by the SAO doing this, he’d be fired and maybe jailed.

2. Zimmerman’s contact with Martin was the typical “you disrespected me” reaction by a street thug. I read the initial story and in five seconds knew exactly what had happened. I worked a hundred cases like this. The only difference is this time the victim had a gun the gangbanger didn’t see and the thug got shot. Like I said, I worked that type of case a hundred times. One case the kid was attacked by the thugs and kicked in the head until he suffered brain damage- all for wearing his hat bill on the wrong side.

3. If we were ever to learn the truth, we’ll find out the girlfriend egged him on. They always do. “You can’t let that so and so do that to you!” Kind of thing. Blacks in Florida do not like Hispanics at the street level, especially in this situation.

4. Zimmerman cooperated with the police, was investigated by I think four agencies and cleared BEFORE Corey arrested him. At some point that will come into the trial. Especially now that we have learned that certain police officers inside the department were talking with the Martin attorney and pushing the detective to do something he didn’t want to do.

5. Zimmerman was doing what he was asked to do by the police department- report suspicious activity within his neighborhood, one that had been burglarized by subjects similar to Martin for months. The pattern of movement by the Martin and Zimmerman indicates Martin left the area, circled back around and jumped Zimmerman. Which is what Zimmerman said happened. Even the 911 tape indicates Zimmerman lost contact with Martin and was heading in the opposite direction from Martin’s home (where Martin was heading when he ran).

So how did Martin get back in front of him? I think Martin dropped off his stash and then went back to teach Zimmerman a lesson. Had Zimmerman been unarmed, the headlines would have read, “neighborhood watch captain beat to death by unknown black assailant.”

And and BTW and 9mm at close range will go through a chest, depending on ribs and spine and clothes. And of course the type of round.

 

[Hotdoger]

Reality is that no one knows unless they were there. However given the what is known if he was told to cease following and ignored it, he would have never been in the situation t begin with. In my opinion for what it is worth he manufactured his own problem. That is not to say that he did not have the right to defend himself but it appears that a little thought process would have changed the whole outcome.

Any reasonable review of Zimmerman's call to the police would lead a REASONABLE person to conclude he quit following TM .

What about TM thought process ?.

 

[88E30M50]

The comment by chipbennet made on the 19th of June, if accurate, really do point to this being a clear case of self defense against a thug. The thug got what he deserved. If that is an accurate account, the only ones that should be going to jail are the prosecutors that are working outside the law to make a political statement at the expense of a mans freedom.

 

[DC47374]

Reality is that no one knows unless they were there. However given the what is known if he was told to cease following and ignored it, he would have never been in the situation t begin with. In my opinion for what it is worth he manufactured his own problem. That is not to say that he did not have the right to defend himself but it appears that a little thought process would have changed the whole outcome.

You are under no obligations to follow the orders of a 911 operator...
I would counter that if TM hadn't been cutting through yards of a gated community, which had been experiencing numerous break-ins, he would not have been followed. In reality, he created his own problem.

 

[BTSTEVE]

REALLY?

Reality is that no one knows unless they were there. However given the what is known if he was told to cease following and ignored it, he would have never been in the situation t begin with. In my opinion for what it is worth he manufactured his own problem. That is not to say that he did not have the right to defend himself but it appears that a little thought process would have changed the whole outcome.

Really? Manufactured his own problem! So if you are having burglaries in your neighborhood you should just ignore what seems to you as suspicious activity. He has the right to follow Martin to see what he was up to. He could have even asked him what he was up to. Neither would give Martin the right to attack Zimmerman. Martin could have kept walking home/ run home or he could of dialed 911 and reported that he was being followed. If confronted by Zimmerman he could of explained that he was walking home and that he was living in the community. The pictures and evidence I have seen Martin was beating Zimmerman which gives Zimmerman the right to defend himself which he exercised.

Just my

Waste of taxpayers money in my opinion!!

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I like this comment



I would be speechless if GZ gets convicted of even manslaughter, and I don't think it would even be possible to lose on the first appeal.

Sooo, who's yer pick to win the Superbowl in 2014?

 

[HoosierLife]

Sounds about right to me

archer52 | June 9, 2013 at 9:16 pm
Being a retired veteran detective from Florida and working a number of gang related attacks I can say a couple of things here.

1. Zimmerman’s arrest was political. The first I’d seen in my 20 yrs of policing. It was not only political but overtly political, as in “you can’t stop us because we have the authority”. Scott flinched when the race baiting threat was raised and sent Blondi who sent Corey (who has a Lois Lerner approach to the law) to do the deed. I read the PC statement. My ex-partner read the PC statement. In Florida law you have to have PC to make the arrest. There was none there and in fact exculpatory evidence was intentionally left out of the statement- a direct violation of Florida law. If a regular police detective was caught by the SAO doing this, he’d be fired and maybe jailed.

2. Zimmerman’s contact with Martin was the typical “you disrespected me” reaction by a street thug. I read the initial story and in five seconds knew exactly what had happened. I worked a hundred cases like this. The only difference is this time the victim had a gun the gangbanger didn’t see and the thug got shot. Like I said, I worked that type of case a hundred times. One case the kid was attacked by the thugs and kicked in the head until he suffered brain damage- all for wearing his hat bill on the wrong side.

3. If we were ever to learn the truth, we’ll find out the girlfriend egged him on. They always do. “You can’t let that so and so do that to you!” Kind of thing. Blacks in Florida do not like Hispanics at the street level, especially in this situation.

4. Zimmerman cooperated with the police, was investigated by I think four agencies and cleared BEFORE Corey arrested him. At some point that will come into the trial. Especially now that we have learned that certain police officers inside the department were talking with the Martin attorney and pushing the detective to do something he didn’t want to do.

5. Zimmerman was doing what he was asked to do by the police department- report suspicious activity within his neighborhood, one that had been burglarized by subjects similar to Martin for months. The pattern of movement by the Martin and Zimmerman indicates Martin left the area, circled back around and jumped Zimmerman. Which is what Zimmerman said happened. Even the 911 tape indicates Zimmerman lost contact with Martin and was heading in the opposite direction from Martin’s home (where Martin was heading when he ran).

So how did Martin get back in front of him? I think Martin dropped off his stash and then went back to teach Zimmerman a lesson. Had Zimmerman been unarmed, the headlines would have read, “neighborhood watch captain beat to death by unknown black assailant.”

And and BTW and 9mm at close range will go through a chest, depending on ribs and spine and clothes. And of course the type of round.

Great post. This is the best explanation I've read of what happened in this situation yet. Thank you for this contribution.

Now this whole arrest has been political from the beginning. I've read a couple dozen times, "If Obama had a son..." and I honestly missed him making tha comment when this occurred. How could the president of the US interject himself in a local case like this??

I just read an article on drudge implying their may be race riots across the country if Zimmerman is acquitted. Does anybody thinks that's likely?

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Great post. This is the best explanation I've read of what happened in this situation yet. Thank you for this contribution.

Just so it's clear , I quoted archer52 from the comments section in the link , but I do agree with his assessment .

 

[j706]

BTW The website that the archer52 comments came from is an awesome site with a wealth of knowledge. Very well worth visiting IMO.

Law of Self Defense – FDLE Forensic Report: Zimmerman’s Gun & Fatal Bullet

 

[CathyInBlue]

How could the president of the US interject himself in a local case like this??

Does the phrase, "The police acted stupidly." ring any bells?

Obama: Cambridge police acted 'stupidly' in Gates arrest - Political Intelligence - A national political and campaign blog from The Boston Globe - Boston.com

 

[TopDog]

Zimmerman’s arrest was most certainly political.

I have been watching Hannity on FOX and they argue both sides. When Hannity brings up the wounds suffered by Zimmerman (particularly the opening up of the back of his head) makes reference to this:

"This is, really, a remarkable degree of autonomous power held by the individual citizen. A person who reasonably believes that they are being threatened with imminent and otherwise unavoidable death or grave bodily harm may in that instant take the life of their attacker"

The Liberal pundit without fail says words to the effect that having his head smashed into the sidewalk while Martin was on top of him beating him does not mean he was in danger of death. What a load of pure smelly crap.

 

[STEEL CORE]

Great read Hoosier Life, thanks for the post, opposite side will argue the exact opposite happend. GZ will be tried and its the jury that decides his fate. God help him for wanting to live and work in a safe enviroment free of crime.

 

[Punkinhead]

archer52 | June 9, 2013 at 9:16 pm
Being a retired veteran detective from Florida and working a number of gang related attacks I can say a couple of things here.

1. Zimmerman’s arrest was political. The first I’d seen in my 20 yrs of policing. It was not only political but overtly political, as in “you can’t stop us because we have the authority”. Scott flinched when the race baiting threat was raised and sent Blondi who sent Corey (who has a Lois Lerner approach to the law) to do the deed. I read the PC statement. My ex-partner read the PC statement. In Florida law you have to have PC to make the arrest. There was none there and in fact exculpatory evidence was intentionally left out of the statement- a direct violation of Florida law. If a regular police detective was caught by the SAO doing this, he’d be fired and maybe jailed.

2. Zimmerman’s contact with Martin was the typical “you disrespected me” reaction by a street thug. I read the initial story and in five seconds knew exactly what had happened. I worked a hundred cases like this. The only difference is this time the victim had a gun the gangbanger didn’t see and the thug got shot. Like I said, I worked that type of case a hundred times. One case the kid was attacked by the thugs and kicked in the head until he suffered brain damage- all for wearing his hat bill on the wrong side.

3. If we were ever to learn the truth, we’ll find out the girlfriend egged him on. They always do. “You can’t let that so and so do that to you!” Kind of thing. Blacks in Florida do not like Hispanics at the street level, especially in this situation.

4. Zimmerman cooperated with the police, was investigated by I think four agencies and cleared BEFORE Corey arrested him. At some point that will come into the trial. Especially now that we have learned that certain police officers inside the department were talking with the Martin attorney and pushing the detective to do something he didn’t want to do.

5. Zimmerman was doing what he was asked to do by the police department- report suspicious activity within his neighborhood, one that had been burglarized by subjects similar to Martin for months. The pattern of movement by the Martin and Zimmerman indicates Martin left the area, circled back around and jumped Zimmerman. Which is what Zimmerman said happened. Even the 911 tape indicates Zimmerman lost contact with Martin and was heading in the opposite direction from Martin’s home (where Martin was heading when he ran).

So how did Martin get back in front of him? I think Martin dropped off his stash and then went back to teach Zimmerman a lesson. Had Zimmerman been unarmed, the headlines would have read, “neighborhood watch captain beat to death by unknown black assailant.”

And and BTW and 9mm at close range will go through a chest, depending on ribs and spine and clothes. And of course the type of round.

That's some ace detective work by archer52. Within 5 seconds he was able to determine exactly what happened, step by step, including the contents of the call to his girlfriend and all he needed to know was the color of Martin's skin. Shame he retired - the south needs more cops like him.

 

[hoosierdoc]

That's some ace detective work by archer52. Within 5 seconds he was able to determine exactly what happened, step by step, including the contents of the call to his girlfriend and all he needed to know was the color of Martin's skin. Shame he retired - the south needs more cops like him.

I can tell within 5 seconds of walking into a room which patients are on chronic narcotics, "disabled", or are just plain nuts, etc... Pattern recognition works. Same with police work I'm guessing.