I have been reinforcing my decision to never again fly in an airplane.

[actaeon277]

Thanks you made me realize I don't hate flying, I hate people…

why the purple?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think there's a bit of a difference between military and civilian... anything.

I put up with a LOT of stuff in the military, that I don't want to put up with now.

You don't want to shower with a dozen of your closest buddies and four complete strangers?

One of my favorite bits of literature is Ishmael in Moby Dick:

"
No, when I go to sea, I go as a simple sailor, right before the mast, plumb down into the fore-castle, aloft there to the royal mast-head. True, they rather order me about some, and make me jump from spar to spar, like a grasshopper in a May meadow. And at first, this sort of thing is unpleasant enough. It touches one's sense of honor...

What of it, if some old hunks of a sea-captain orders me to get a broom and sweep down the decks? What does that indignity amount to, weighed, I mean, in the scales of the New Testament? Do you think the archangel Gabriel thinks anything the less of me, because I promptly and respectfully obey that old hunks in that particular instance? Who ain't a slave? Tell me that. Well, then, however the old sea-captains may order me about- however they may thump and punch me about, I have the satisfaction of knowing that it is all right; that everybody else is one way or other served in much the same way- either in a physical or metaphysical point of view, that is; and so the universal thump is passed round, and all hands should rub each other's shoulder-blades, and be content.

Again, I always go to sea as a sailor, because they make a point of paying me for my trouble, whereas they never pay passengers a single penny that I ever heard of. On the contrary, passengers themselves must pay. And there is all the difference in the world between paying and being paid. The act of paying is perhaps the most uncomfortable infliction that the two orchard thieves entailed upon us. But being paid,- what will compare with it? The urbane activity with which a man receives money is really marvellous, considering that we so earnestly believe money to be the root of all earthly ills, and that on no account can a monied man enter heaven. Ah! how cheerfully we consign ourselves to perdition!"

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Planning my next death tube trip.

I will say this remains one of my favorite INGO threads. The problem with air travel is it got too cheap so "they" could travel as well but simultaneously the issue with air travel is the gap between the experience of the "haves" vs the "have nots".

 

[Ingomike]

Planning my next death tube trip.

I will say this remains one of my favorite INGO threads. The problem with air travel is it got too cheap so "they" could travel as well but simultaneously the issue with air travel is the gap between the experience of the "haves" vs the "have nots".

It is cool that you have shown many ways to get the perks of the “haves”.

One other factor for me, and I suspect other as well is that the older I have gotten the less tolerance I have for crowds and tight situations. I used to love night clubs with hundreds of people, concerts with thousands, but today I would trade tickets to a mega-act for a good local act with a comfortable seat and a good drink.

On a travel note, on a trip to the Alps for Christmas I was disappointed, I had always wanted to ride in what I now understand are little gondolas like in old Bond movies, they now are, dare I say it, “cattle cars” that hold a hundred or more standing so close you are touching and can smell the breath of five people.

I love nomadic trips as I call them, pack the car and head out without a single reservation just wander from place to place, decide where to go next when you are done where you are. Two weeks word best for nomadic trips.

 

[bobzilla]

My biggest concern with cruises is I think I'll be bored and I don't like that you take your own crowd with you everywhere you go. We're very active on vacations, if I just want to sit in a chair and drink I can do that pretty easily anywhere. Maybe unfairly, but I see cruises as very similar to casinos. Not really my kind of fun and always looking to get in your pocket besides. I *may* end up trying an Alaska one, but we'll see.

People either love them or hate them usually. Not much in between. the cruise line you choose and the ship you use can have a massive impact on your outcome. Wife and I are RCL people. We've been on a couple others and they're not the same. We love their mega ships. There's so much to do and see, their shows are really top notch and they have activities all day every day, and not just drinking by the pool or a dance party (although there are some of those as well). The MCS cruise we did in March was.... ok. It's been several years since we'd gone, it was quite a bit cheaper and we were going with friends who are used to Carnival. Their experience was different than ours.

 

[bobzilla]

I thought the same thing about a cruise but really ended up enjoying it. The one we took was “given” to us, (free seed corn jars (edit: hats) have come a long way), but we would do it again. She’d love to go to Alaska.

Alaskan cruises are amazing. It's such a different experience from the Med or Caribbean. Feels much more laid back and the scenery is a completely different kind of beautiful, especially up the inside passage.

 

[BugI02]

There's no Buc-ees in the air, for example, which is a definite advantage of road trips over air travel. But, there's also no traffic jams where you're stuck on the interstate for hours because an RV creamed the guardrail and set fire...

 

[DoggyDaddy]

People either love them or hate them usually. Not much in between. the cruise line you choose and the ship you use can have a massive impact on your outcome. Wife and I are RCL people. We've been on a couple others and they're not the same. We love their mega ships. There's so much to do and see, their shows are really top notch and they have activities all day every day, and not just drinking by the pool or a dance party (although there are some of those as well). The MCS cruise we did in March was.... ok. It's been several years since we'd gone, it was quite a bit cheaper and we were going with friends who are used to Carnival. Their experience was different than ours.

When I was younger, I thought I'd like one of those "Barefoot Cruises" where you're actually a part of the crew on a sailing ship. The only way I think I'd like a cruise these days would be if they'd let me drive the boat, stop where I wanted for as long as I wanted, etc.. I don't have any interest in casinos or shows or midnight buffets. I kind of look at them as the "mass transit" of vacations.

 

[BugI02]

My biggest concern with cruises is I think I'll be bored and I don't like that you take your own crowd with you everywhere you go. We're very active on vacations, if I just want to sit in a chair and drink I can do that pretty easily anywhere. Maybe unfairly, but I see cruises as very similar to casinos. Not really my kind of fun and always looking to get in your pocket besides. I *may* end up trying an Alaska one, but we'll see.

This ^^^ We are active also and are photographers, too, so we want to wander around without a handler. The big disadvantage to cruising is the itinerary is set. Find an interesting place you'd like an extra day in? Too bad. Bored with the next stop immediately, ditto

In the W Italy/Greece setting, the ship moves overnight and the distances weren't far, so the ship was kind of an all inclusive resort analog. Quite often the harbor can be far from where you want to go, but the older a city is with a more sea-faring history the less of a problem that is. It worked for the greek isles, too, because one was not driving from one to the other anyways so a boat or ship was always going to be involved. Didn't like having a curfew, either - basically had to be back on board before an evenings sailing time

 

[bobzilla]

You don’t have to take their excursions. You can hop off the ship and wonder around until time to reboard. Wife and I use them as little tastes of different places. If we like it we will go back again and stay. Just going and staying somewhere we don’t know if we’d like was kind of ruined for us by Jamaica. Did it. Got offered enough pot to choke Cheech and saw the squalor. No need to go back. 4.5 days was about 2.5 too long.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It is cool that you have shown many ways to get the perks of the “haves”.

One other factor for me, and I suspect other as well is that the older I have gotten the less tolerance I have for crowds and tight situations. I used to love night clubs with hundreds of people, concerts with thousands, but today I would trade tickets to a mega-act for a good local act with a comfortable seat and a good drink.

On a travel note, on a trip to the Alps for Christmas I was disappointed, I had always wanted to ride in what I now understand are little gondolas like in old Bond movies, they now are, dare I say it, “cattle cars” that hold a hundred or more standing so close you are touching and can smell the breath of five people.

I love nomadic trips as I call them, pack the car and head out without a single reservation just wander from place to place, decide where to go next when you are done where you are. Two weeks word best for nomadic trips.

Off season travel seldom feels crowded to me. I don't feel crowded on a plane, either. It's not like people are milling around and interacting much. Put on your headphones, read a book/ watch a movie/ whatever and the world shrinks to your little bubble.

We do wandering travel sometime. Often with a general big loop in mind and a few major stops but no plans in the middle. Last Portugal trip I had the first 6 nights and 1 set of train tickets booked and nothing beyond that. Only a hand full of sights planned. Just depends.

 

[Sigblaster]

View attachment 238674

If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
-except in my Cessna

I really didn't realize this thread was still going.

But boy howdy, this post did not age well!

 

[actaeon277]

I'm biting back "cruise" comments...

 

[Sigblaster]

Huh.

I couldn't do my job without air travel.

"Don't distract me with statistics" = "I gave in to appeal-to-emotion logical fallacy."

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics".

I know a bit about statistics. I also know that you can boil them down to smaller populations or scale them up to larger populations and change the probability of certain events occuring. While the overall percentage of an unfavorable outcome during flight is very small, there is a subset of people who fly who you can assert have had a zero chance of any incidents or accidents occuring. There is also a subset of the flying population who can be shown to have had a 100% chance of experiencing and insident or accident.

The question becomes, which subset do you think you might eventually fall into?

 

[Sigblaster]

I'm biting back "cruise" comments...

I don't know at what page cruises came into this, but they're not for me. Fine for other people, that's cool. It just does not appeal to me, for many reasons. Although, I must admit, travelling on the Queen Mary 2 does have a certain appeal.

 

[chipbennett]

I just love it when THE WHOLE PLANE* jumps up when stopping at the arrival gate. Then they all stand there hunched over to clear the overhead bins until they can get into the aisle to retrieve their bloated carry-on bags.

*Except me. I stay comfortably seated until it’s my turn to get up and deplane. What’s so hard about that?

Like Butt-Head says, “some people are dumb”.

A long time ago, I used to be one of those people. Now (I am an aisle-seater), I stand up, get my carry-on out of the overhead bin, put it in the aisle, put my laptop briefcase on the handle - and then sit back down until the deplaning reaches my row.

 

[chipbennett]

Not quite, there are much fewer perks airlines have available to award their highest status FFs, so 10 different boarding groups makes something out of nothing to give to status pax. In the era of targeted 85% or greater load factors, upgrades are pretty few and far between even if you have the miles/legs/points/whatever so those are out. You might be offered an 'upgrade' to a slightly larger seat, but it will almost certainly be a middle seat, sometimes an exit row middle seat

Too true. Delta prides themselves on their percentage of first class seats that are revenue (purchased fare class, cash/miles upgrades) rather than complimentary upgrade. I think it's something like 80% revenue now, when ten years ago it was more like 20%? Combined with how full the planes are now, consistently, and status upgrades to first class are fewer and farther between.

As far as boarding times, research has shown several times that boarding back to front all window seats then all middles and finally all aisles is fastest but you have to build that method in from the ground up. Southwest has the closest thing to that but not really that close. We call it the 'fall of Saigon boarding method'

If boarding was the only concern and every passenger was considered a party of one, this would be the way to go. But, families can't board this way, and the people sitting in the aisles (the preferred seats, so likely to be the people with airline status) would get screwed out of overhead bin space. Plus, it would create a much worse experience for the highest-status and highest fare-class paying passengers.

They could drastically speed up boarding by just outlawing most carry ons and making checked bags included in the ticket price again, because people standing in the aisle to load the overhead or wandering the aisle to find overhead space really slow things down. There are two reasons that isn't going to happen:

1) Bag fees are a significant source of revenue for most airlines

2) A weight of a carry on bag is considered to be part of the standard passenger weight for weight and balance purposes. That means they only have to count 190 lbs summer/195 lbs winter for you AND your carry on, whereas they would have to count that same 190/195 lbs for you PLUS
23kg for your checked bag and both count against the aircraft's take-off weight restrictions

This legal fiction often results in the aircraft being 4 - 5000 lbs over calculated weight (the crew can ballpark this given the variance between calculated and actual trim settings once in cruise flight), which affects calculation of such things as accelerate-stop distance, runway length required and go/no go speed for engine failure during take-off. Most airline aircraft have a greater than 50% safety factor but some of that is being used just about every take-off

This is a very good point, and one I hadn't really considered much. I wonder if airlines could use gate checking as a loophole here? All carry-ons get gate-checked, unless you want to pay to carry it on board (or have status).

 

[chipbennett]

I'm using a Cotopaxi backpack for a bin bag and what I want while seated just goes in my sport coat pockets. I also pack a collapsible Eddie Bauer backpack which I can then use as a 'personal item' if we buy stuff at duty free or whatnot. The only thing I'm still kind of struggling with is cord management/organization with the laptop, cell phone, euro adapter, and watch cable.

We may have the very same Eddie Bauer backpack - mine is self-packable, and goes with me on many trips, primarily as a day bag.

My biggest concern with cruises is I think I'll be bored and I don't like that you take your own crowd with you everywhere you go. We're very active on vacations, if I just want to sit in a chair and drink I can do that pretty easily anywhere. Maybe unfairly, but I see cruises as very similar to casinos. Not really my kind of fun and always looking to get in your pocket besides. I *may* end up trying an Alaska one, but we'll see.

I've heard many people express similar concerns - but only before they've actually taken a cruise. There is plenty to do to stay active on a cruise. It's one of the reasons I love cruising. I can lounge all day if I want, or I can stay busy with wall-to-wall activities. As for getting nickeled-and-dimed: yeah, all the mainstream cruise lines do it to some extent. But you can avoid all of it. And you travel enough that you could probably quite confidently plan your own excursions at ports of call. Sometimes it's as simple as hailing a taxi to a local beach, or renting a car and exploring on your own.

 

[chipbennett]

People either love them or hate them usually. Not much in between. the cruise line you choose and the ship you use can have a massive impact on your outcome. Wife and I are RCL people. We've been on a couple others and they're not the same. We love their mega ships. There's so much to do and see, their shows are really top notch and they have activities all day every day, and not just drinking by the pool or a dance party (although there are some of those as well). The MCS cruise we did in March was.... ok. It's been several years since we'd gone, it was quite a bit cheaper and we were going with friends who are used to Carnival. Their experience was different than ours.

Disney Cruise Line is fantastic, but it's a luxury cruise line. I am a fan of NCL. It strikes the right balance for me - and I prefer the smaller ships (2,000 - 2,500 passengers), mainly because I hate crowds and on the smaller ships, it seems to be easier to interact with/get to know the staff.

MSC is a perfect example of "you get what you pay for". They are fine for what they are: a mainstream cruise line with gorgeous ships, but offering a very base experience for a cheap price, and pay-to-play for higher-end experiences.

 

[chipbennett]

View attachment 350568

I've been in that very line at JFK, many times.