Do you compete with what you carry?

[Coach]

"yes, I use my actual carry gun, because Hick's law and whatnot... and I don't wish to be killed in the streets."

I saw the above statement as sarcasm. I am uncertain if Friction did not or he attempted to respond with nuclear level sarcasm of his own.

in a proficient manor.

In a proficient manor the crops get planted, tended and harvested right on schedule and peasants and serfs know they place and are happy in their place, and the Lord of the Manor is firm but fair and takes good care of everyone and the animals under his authority. I have no idea where gun play and competition come into this.

It is funny to me at least.

 

[Grelber]

"yes, I use my actual carry gun, because Hick's law and whatnot... and I don't wish to be killed in the streets."

This is really a misinterpretation of Hicks law. Simply put, it creates a mathematical formula that defines the relationship between the amount of options you have and the time it takes to choose an option to act on. It DOES NOT address muscle memory with regards to reacting to a given stimulus with a singular option for that response as anything other than a control for the formula. There are a ton of "instructors" out there that misquote the principles of this concept routinely which is likely why is is so widely misused and misunderstood.

If you had all your guns lying on a table, or 2 guns, three knives, 5 flashlights and 14 spare mags on your belt at Walmart you would be negatively affected by the presence of those items with regards to selecting one of them for a given task if that task was based on a reaction to outside stimulus. That is a situation that could be quantified using principles from Hicks law.

If you have one gun on your belt then at the moment you decide to use it, and the subsequent employment of that weapon in a proficient manor, are results of training and muscle memory not Hicks law.

Prior to making the decision to use the weapon you would be faced with principles that could be measured/defined by Hicks law such as "Is this guy really a threat or am I misinterpreting the situation", "Can I run away", "did I just get shot", etc. Likewise, as part of the decision to use the weapon, if there were multiple targets then you would be affected by this principle as you choose and engagement sequence. However, as stated, the act of putting the weapon into operation, once committed to doing so, is not a factor of hicks law unless you have a gun that has more than 1 trigger, 2 or more sets of sites, 2 or more methods to disengage the safeties, etc.

Cops discuss Hicks Law a bunch based on the escalation of force and the variety of options at their disposal for handling situations. Again, that concept is based on the options available to them, not the actual use of the particular firearm they are carrying once they decide to use it.

There are nuances and second and third order issues associated with what I just explained but the bottom line when it comes to CC is that people that carry more than one tool for the job are more affecters by Hicks law then people that carry a singular, but different, tool every day.

Additionally, USPSA could be considered negative training with regards to defensive shooting when specifically discussing issues measure by Hicks law, due to the fact that the number of engagement decisions is very limited and the initial action is triggered by a reaction to an audible signal not a decision. In essence, if its within 180 degrees and brown cardboard it OK to shoot after a standardized tone goes off near your head. That simplifies the thought process and decision matrix dramatically. It would be measurable using Hicks law if only half the brown cardboard targets had a green dot on them which was an indicator that they were valid targets. It would be measurable using Hicks law the range berms moves constantly to avoid a static definition of "down range". It would be measurable using Hicks law if the shot timers had three specific tones but only one of them was a valid and the other 2 would get you DQ'ed if you reacted. If those conditions were present then USPSA would more closely resemble real life with regards to the decisions process involved and how YOU processed those decisions.

So to say you shoot USPSA with a carry gun specifically to minimize the decisions you need to make in a self defense environment is a difficult concept to validate in any legit discussion. To say that you shoot USPSA with the same gun you carry to gain proficiency with that weapon under stress and to improve your general handling/marksmanship skills is completely legit, but those issues are not measured using the formulas consistent with Hicks law.

This is why tldr was invented.

 

[rvb]

I figured this thread would deliver, and it did!

Lol @ Coach. "Proficient manor"

 

[sporter]

I figured this thread would deliver, and it did!

Lol @ Coach. "Proficient manor"

If there would have had seamless rail back in the day (and computerized networking); much less trainwreck.

 

[Slawburger]

I carry a shorter version of my USPSA production firearm. Same grip, feel, trigger and controls, different length and sights. I might change the sights on my EDC to match at some point.

 

[chezuki]

It is funny to me at least.

I've been called a "Grammar Nazi" for much less.

 

[rhino]

Wait! What just happened here? And how bad was it for me, since I'm usually on the receiving end for something?

 

[blkrifle]

Wait! What just happened here? And how bad was it for me, since I'm usually on the receiving end for something?

they are talking about you!

 

[Coach]

I've been called a "Grammar Nazi" for much less.

It would have to be a vocabulary not grammar in my case. I have no clear idea where the commas go. Plus I do exhibit some fascist tendencies at times, but Nazi is too strong.

 

[rhino]

they are talking about you!

I KNEW IT!

It would have to be a vocabulary not grammar in my case. I have no clear idea where the commas go. Plus I do exhibit some fascist tendencies at times, but Nazi is too strong.

We're going to need a ruling from the judges on this.

 

[rvb]

We're going to need a ruling from the judges on this.

I see a FTDR in someone's future....

-rvb

 

[jakemartens]

"yes, I use my actual carry gun, because Hick's law and whatnot... and I don't wish to be killed in the streets."

This is really a misinterpretation of Hicks law. Simply put, it creates a mathematical formula that defines the relationship between the amount of options you have and the time it takes to choose an option to act on. It DOES NOT address muscle memory with regards to reacting to a given stimulus with a singular option for that response as anything other than a control for the formula. There are a ton of "instructors" out there that misquote the principles of this concept routinely which is likely why is is so widely misused and misunderstood.

If you had all your guns lying on a table, or 2 guns, three knives, 5 flashlights and 14 spare mags on your belt at Walmart you would be negatively affected by the presence of those items with regards to selecting one of them for a given task if that task was based on a reaction to outside stimulus. That is a situation that could be quantified using principles from Hicks law.

If you have one gun on your belt then at the moment you decide to use it, and the subsequent employment of that weapon in a proficient manor, are results of training and muscle memory not Hicks law.

Prior to making the decision to use the weapon you would be faced with principles that could be measured/defined by Hicks law such as "Is this guy really a threat or am I misinterpreting the situation", "Can I run away", "did I just get shot", etc. Likewise, as part of the decision to use the weapon, if there were multiple targets then you would be affected by this principle as you choose and engagement sequence. However, as stated, the act of putting the weapon into operation, once committed to doing so, is not a factor of hicks law unless you have a gun that has more than 1 trigger, 2 or more sets of sites, 2 or more methods to disengage the safeties, etc.

Cops discuss Hicks Law a bunch based on the escalation of force and the variety of options at their disposal for handling situations. Again, that concept is based on the options available to them, not the actual use of the particular firearm they are carrying once they decide to use it.

There are nuances and second and third order issues associated with what I just explained but the bottom line when it comes to CC is that people that carry more than one tool for the job are more affecters by Hicks law then people that carry a singular, but different, tool every day.

Additionally, USPSA could be considered negative training with regards to defensive shooting when specifically discussing issues measure by Hicks law, due to the fact that the number of engagement decisions is very limited and the initial action is triggered by a reaction to an audible signal not a decision. In essence, if its within 180 degrees and brown cardboard it OK to shoot after a standardized tone goes off near your head. That simplifies the thought process and decision matrix dramatically. It would be measurable using Hicks law if only half the brown cardboard targets had a green dot on them which was an indicator that they were valid targets. It would be measurable using Hicks law the range berms moves constantly to avoid a static definition of "down range". It would be measurable using Hicks law if the shot timers had three specific tones but only one of them was a valid and the other 2 would get you DQ'ed if you reacted. If those conditions were present then USPSA would more closely resemble real life with regards to the decisions process involved and how YOU processed those decisions.

So to say you shoot USPSA with a carry gun specifically to minimize the decisions you need to make in a self defense environment is a difficult concept to validate in any legit discussion. To say that you shoot USPSA with the same gun you carry to gain proficiency with that weapon under stress and to improve your general handling/marksmanship skills is completely legit, but those issues are not measured using the formulas consistent with Hicks law.

so your answer is no...??

 

[SSGSAD]

For me, it was FNS, with my Ruger .22. I haven't shot since the ammo "shortage". But don't think, that I can't hit what I aim at.....

 

[ModernGunner]

Yep, Chez, same gun as EDC. When I used to compete, I used the same handgun issued me by the Department. Why? 'Cause it's the same gun that I'd be fighting with, and if I can't shoot well enough with that one, there might not BE an opportunity to use a 'race gun'!

Did well enough (1st's & 2nd's) with the duty-issue, so why waste money on some mega-dollar 'custom' jobbie?

Besides, as we all know (or should) it's not the gun, it's the person using it. So the question for me was: Am I good enough to compete with a stone-stock duty-issue firearm? Had to find out, for my own edification. It certainly was a confidence builder when I holstered that sidearm, on-duty or off.

 

[BillD]

I carried a GM 1911 and two spare mags for a couple decades. Never got close to a gunfight.
Now I carry an Airweight J frame. Still haven't been close.

 

[Rocket]

Yes. G22 but I will be switching to a G35 next season. All same manipulations but lighter trigger. IDPA and GSSF

 

[rhino]

I carried a GM 1911 and two spare mags for a couple decades. Never got close to a gunfight.
Now I carry an Airweight J frame. Still haven't been close.

Apparently you haven't been trying hard enough!

 

[JOM]

i shoot my walther all this year and it runs pretty good except for the light primer strikes...

 

[chezuki]

i shoot my walther all this year and it runs pretty good except for the light primer strikes...

Light primer strikes will get you killed on the str...

...wait, that one might actually be true.

 

[sporter]

No; I don't CCW my G34.