Turkey really shoots down a Mig today

[IndyDave1776]

Turkey PM accuses Russia of seeking 'ethnic cleansing' in Syria

ISIS is now an ethnic group?

 

[T.Lex]

ISIS is now an ethnic group?

That's actually an interesting question, if we parse it in terms of Sunni/Shia.

But, I think Turkey's point is that Russia isn't only attacking Daesh. If they're going after Turkmen, which they probably are, then that is arguably an ethnic group.

 

[IndyDave1776]

That's actually an interesting question, if we parse it in terms of Sunni/Shia.

But, I think Turkey's point is that Russia isn't only attacking Daesh. If they're going after Turkmen, which they probably are, then that is arguably an ethnic group.

Taking my wise ass hat off and putting on a more serious one, I suspected that this was the concern. That said, it is hard to make a case for ethnic cleansing given the diversity of opposition forces Russia is attempting to help Assad put down. Political cleansing would appear to be a more accurate description. I see a complex web here in which Turkey is more interested in furthering the interests of Turkmen, domestic and foreign and conversely opposing Kurds, domestic and foreign, that it is about ISIS or any other threat which would appear to be a far more immediate problem. This leads me to question whether Erdogan is an idiot or has no problem with the worst traits of conquering, caliphate-establishing, head-lopping Islam.

 

[T.Lex]

I see a complex web here in which Turkey is more interested in furthering the interests of Turkmen, domestic and foreign and conversely opposing Kurds, domestic and foreign, that it is about ISIS or any other threat which would appear to be a far more immediate problem. This leads me to question whether Erdogan is an idiot or has no problem with the worst traits of conquering, caliphate-establishing, head-lopping Islam.

Well, I would say that a bit differently. The "ethnic cleansing" line is for internal consumption. There's generations of emotional baggage attached to that idea in Turkey, and the nearby parts of Russia, too, for that matter.

Erdogan is Muslim (I assume). But he also understands that secular politics is more responsible for his continuing success than religion.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Well, I would say that a bit differently. The "ethnic cleansing" line is for internal consumption. There's generations of emotional baggage attached to that idea in Turkey, and the nearby parts of Russia, too, for that matter.

Erdogan is Muslim (I assume). But he also understands that secular politics is more responsible for his continuing success than religion.

I am not so sure about Erdogan and secular politics. He seems to have a pattern of drifting Turkey in a more theocratic direction, repudiating Mustafa Kamil in a way similar to that of Reagan repudiating the values of FD Roosevelt.

 

[Birds Away]

The reason we, and others, have trouble with Erdogan is that he is taking Turkey away from the secularism.

 

[T.Lex]

The reason we, and others, have trouble with Erdogan is that he is taking Turkey away from the secularism.

That'll be a hard case for him to make now, though, right? He will have to distance himself from fundamentalism.

I would only disagree with that to the extent I would say he was more balancing along a thin line. Turkey was feeling a renewed, faith-based politicking. But, he also allowed US/allied resources in and over Turkey to be committed to the fight against Daesh.

Ultimately, he's a national politician. He needs to be able to play many different cards. I do not believe him to be a hardline islamist.

 

[Jludo]

The reason we, and others, have trouble with Erdogan is that he is taking Turkey away from the secularism.

Also their beef with the Kurds, who I feel like everyone likes.

 

[Birds Away]

That'll be a hard case for him to make now, though, right? He will have to distance himself from fundamentalism.

I would only disagree with that to the extent I would say he was more balancing along a thin line. Turkey was feeling a renewed, faith-based politicking. But, he also allowed US/allied resources in and over Turkey to be committed to the fight against Daesh.

Ultimately, he's a national politician. He needs to be able to play many different cards. I do not believe him to be a hardline islamist.

No, but left to his own devices he would lean farther that way then would make his allies comfortable.

 

[T.Lex]

No, but left to his own devices he would lean farther that way then would make his allies comfortable.

IMHO, national politicians the world over have at least one trait in common: if left to their own devices, they would use whatever artifice necessary to achieve more power.

Perhaps he would use religion, perhaps not. Thankfully, the government remains secular enough to impose a balance.

Nationalism, more than religion, is more strongly in play in both Russia and Turkey, at this point.

 

[T.Lex]

Interesting take on Russia's trump cards.

Out of Gas: Turkey is Losing Its Battle with Russia | Observer

But Turkey relies on Russia for $20 billion of natural gas every year. If that flow is even slightly altered, even for a single day—Turkey will grind to a halt. That natural gas engines Turkey’s electric grid.
Gas is next. Russia will start pulling it. They have already cancelled work on the underwater gas pipeline which, together with the nuclear electric plants, would eventually make Turkey more energy independent.
Turkey cannot get that much gas replaced. They are in public conflict not only with Russia but also with alternative suppliers. They sided with the Muslim Brotherhood so Egypt will not supply them. They have been very aggressively critical of Saudi Arabia so they will not supply them. There is always Israel and Israel could, potentially, help supply Turkey’s natural gas needs—but Turkey, a former ally of the Jewish state, has been openly hostile to Israel.

 

[IndyDave1776]

It would definitely seem that Erdogan has one talent which surpasses all others--filling his own water dish with, well, used water.

 

[T.Lex]

And another demarche:
Russia fires warning shot at Turkey boat in Aegean - BBC News

No vessels were sunk in the making of this foreign relations escalation.

 

[T.Lex]

Looks like another incident in the Crimean.
https://www.rt.com/news/325840-russian-navy-platform-turkish-vessel/

A Russian missile cruiser and a coast guard powerboat had to intervene after a merchant vessel flying the Turkish flag blocked a convoy transporting two drill platforms to a new location in Moscow's territorial waters.

Then this observation from a Russian political scientist:

Trifkovich explained, that the Montreux Convention (signed in 1936) is subject to renewal every 20 years, so in 2016 the convention will be re-signed.

“Obviously, this would be a handy time for the Turks to start raising tension and to start claiming that the number of incidents – for which they, of course, would blame the Russian side – indicates the need to impose some as yet unknown restrictions on the passage of the Russian warships through the straits,” Trifkovich said, stressing that in the past similar incidents were quite rare.

So Russia is explicitly acknowledging the importance of Montreux.

At first I thought this was the same incident as the earlier fishing boat, but the article actually mentions the shots fired.

 

[T.Lex]

Well, Putin's descriptions are getting more colorful.

Putin pours fresh scorn on Turkey for downing Russian jet - BBC News

"The Turks", he said, had "decided to lick the Americans in a certain place".
...
He said he saw "no prospect" of ties improving with Turkey - which Russia has put under sanctions - under its current leaders.
There was, he said, a "creeping Islamisation of Turkey that would have Ataturk rolling in his grave".

Of course, he also:

• Praised Sepp Blatter and suggested the suspended head of Fifa should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize
• Denied Russian regular troops were deployed in rebel-held eastern Ukraine but said there could be "people there who were carrying out certain tasks including in the military sphere"

 

[T.Lex]

The downed jet's black box is damaged. Information from it not available.

Total coincidence, I'm sure.

Russia Turkey: Sukhoi jet black box 'damaged' - BBC News

 

[T.Lex]

The rhetorical hammers are hitting familiar nails.
Russia ties Turkey to illicit activities and Daesh.
https://www.rt.com/news/326731-turkey-afghanistan-heroin-europe/

Turkey calls out Russia for hitting non-terrorist targets in Syria.
Turkey's Davutoglu condemns Russia for strikes on Syria's Idlib | Reuters

I think Russia is winning the propaganda war. At least, Putin is more creative.

ETA:
Another interesting tidbit -
http://www.globalresearch.ca/eu-and...e-to-russian-warplanes-fighting-daesh/5497109

Russia not allowed over EU or Turkey. Well, Turkey I can understand. But that's a LONG way around.

 

[T.Lex]

Turkish-Russian tension spills into South Caucasus

The Nagorno-Karabakh issue is interesting on several levels. But...

Relations between Turkey and Russia took a hit after the Turkish Air Forces (THK) shot down a Russian warplane near the Syrian border in late November. Since then, the decades-old conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia over Nagorno-Karabakh has escalated, with Azerbaijan firing from tanks for the first time since the early 1990s. Last week, Yerevan announced that the cease-fire, which technically halted fighting in 1994, if not totally erasing clashes, is no longer in effect.
...
The Turkish, Georgian and Azerbaijani defense ministers held a meeting in Turkey to discuss cooperation against regional threats. Then Russian and Armenian defense ministers signed a treaty on Wednesday to create a joint regional air defense system. The main target of the cooperation was no secret.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A Russian military official told the pro-Moscow Sputnik news agency at the time the treaty is aimed against Turkey.[/FONT]

Armenia and Turkey have a long standing and deeply rooted enmity. There is some evidence that it might actually be genetic.

 

[mrjarrell]

Turkish-Russian tension spills into South Caucasus

The Nagorno-Karabakh issue is interesting on several levels. But...
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Armenia and Turkey have a long standing and deeply rooted enmity. There is some evidence that it might actually be genetic.

The enmity comes from the fact that Turkey committed genocide in Armenia in an attempt to exterminate them. I don't blame the Armenians for still being pissed. To this day Turkey still denies it happened, despite evidence to the contrary.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The enmity comes from the fact that Turkey committed genocide in Armenia in an attempt to exterminate them. I don't blame the Armenians for still being pissed. To this day Turkey still denies it happened, despite evidence to the contrary.

Indeed so. Funny how people get pissed and stay that way when someone tries to eliminate them from the face of the planet.