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Turkey really shoots down a Mig today
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- Jan 12, 2012
- 27,286
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Very understandable.
That genocidal incident was the most recent, but not the sole source. The Armenians were basically indigenous to the area when the turkic tribes moved in and set up what became the Ottoman empire. They were mistreated ever since, including by the Russians. (One of the tsarist foreign ministers wanted an Armenia without Armenians, as I recall.) Although the Russians didn't seriously try to wipe them out.
My point is not whether the Armenians or Turks deserve to hate each other. Rather, there is a larger context to this. Russia will support the Armenians. The Turks are looking to natural enemies of the Armenians and Russians for support: the Ukraine, and now Azerbaijan.
Lines are being drawn.
My point is not whether the Armenians or Turks deserve to hate each other. Rather, there is a larger context to this. Russia will support the Armenians. The Turks are looking to natural enemies of the Armenians and Russians for support: the Ukraine, and now Azerbaijan.
Lines are being drawn.
Second verse, same as the first... but not exactly.
Turkey says Russia violated its airspace near Syria border - BBC News
The Su-34 is at least a generation more advanced than the Su-24 previously shot down (but don't judge by the numbers - it doesn't really work like that).
And, last I heard, there were fighter escorts.
Turkey says Russia violated its airspace near Syria border - BBC News
The Su-34 is at least a generation more advanced than the Su-24 previously shot down (but don't judge by the numbers - it doesn't really work like that).
And, last I heard, there were fighter escorts.
- Jan 12, 2012
- 27,286
- 113
Russkie numbers can be pretty hard to follow as they are straight date of introduction sequence by manufacturer, or rather design bureau. That said, in a straight in a row set of numbers, you can have a fighter, a bomber, and interceptor, or a ground attack plane scrambled up in no particular order. The Su-24, for example, is a supersonic variable-geometry bomber. The Su-34 is an updated development of the Su-27 fighter.
Yep. WAY better than our way of naming based on manufacturer and date of introduction (WWII) or a standardized number based on roll that gives us a jump from F-16 to F/A-18, the jump to F/B-111, the F-117 (without any sort of "F" role), the jump to F-22, then again to F-35.
Oh, and the EA-6, which is only nominally related to the A-6. Don't get me wrong, I understand the logistical issues involved, and the reasons why some of these numbers were used.
In fact, it kinda adds to the charm - both of theirs and ours - when there are stories behind some of the designations.
- Jan 12, 2012
- 27,286
- 113
Yep. WAY better than our way of naming based on manufacturer and date of introduction (WWII) or a standardized number based on roll that gives us a jump from F-16 to F/A-18, the jump to F/B-111, the F-117 (without any sort of "F" role), the jump to F-22, then again to F-35.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the logistical issues involved, and the reasons why some of these numbers were used.
In fact, it kinda adds to the charm - both of theirs and ours - when there are stories behind some of the designations.
No disagreement, just highlighting the differences which can throw our people a curve. Much in the same way, our M60 tank went through the M60, M60A1, A2, and A3 versions inside of a 10 year period. By Russian standards, the M60A3 would have been the M65, and conversely, the T-72 would have been in our system the T-64A2.
Yep. WAY better than our way of naming based on manufacturer and date of introduction (WWII) or a standardized number based on roll that gives us a jump from F-16 to F/A-18, the jump to F/B-111, the F-117 (without any sort of "F" role), the jump to F-22, then again to F-35.
The F/A-18 was originally the Northrup YF-17 which competed against the YF-16 for the Air Force's LWF (Light Weight Fighter) and lost. When the Navy was shopping for their strike fighter program Congress directed them to use as much technology as possible from the AF's LWF program. Northrup, not having much experience with Navy aircraft, partnered with McDonnell and the YF-17 was heavily modified into the YF-18.
The F-117 was designated as such mostly for a misinformation campaign. Or, if you want to perpetuate the egos of pilots, the Air Force has a hard time recruiting pilots the best pilots to fly planes that do not have an F designation.... But the Air Force has a history of not following the DoD designation guidelines and has several 'attack' aircraft with F designations. Remember the F-105....In fact, the F-111 was developed because the F-105 required too long of a run way and the Air Force set a requirement for a fast, long range, low level nuclear capable attack bomber that can operate from short and unprepared fields. It was the short field requirement that led to the swept wing F-111. The F-111 was a product of the TFX Tactical Fighter Experiment shared between the Air Force and Navy as directed by then SECDEF McNamara). The aircraft did not meet the Navy's fleet protection fighter requirement so they cancelled it. But they did take its AWG-9 RADAR and AIM-54 Pheonix missile to put on the F-14 which was built by Grumman who was Northrups partner on the F-11.
The EA-6 does not share the same mission at all with the A-6. The Electronic warfare versions shared an airframe with the attack aircraft but were vastly different in mission. The EA-6A was a two seat EW/SEAD platform that evolved into the EA-6B 4 seater as mission capabilities exceeded what could be managed by one EW officer. Kind of similar in how the above F-111 Aardvark was modified into the EF-111 Raven....
The jump between the F-22 and F-35 is actually due to a humorous error. The JSF test aircraft were called the X-32 and X-35 but no production designation was defined much less reserved. So, during the press conference announcing the winner, the program manager, when answering the question of what it will be called, mistakenly said "F-35". Instead of admitting to an error, they just kept it. It should have been the F-24. In fact, the Air Force nomenclature office said so but to no avail.
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Not picking on you, Kut (except when I am), but this illustrates (again) how international politics abhors a vacuum.
Syria conflict: Russia and Turkey 'in first joint air strikes on IS' - BBC News
So... a year and a couple months after Turkey shoots down a Russian plane, Turkey is playing ball with Russia. Probably didn't have much choice.
I bet the Turkish pilots get nervous when the Russian fighter escort is on their 6.
Makes me wonder if the Russian pilots lock up the Turkish planes with their targeting radar just for fun. "How's THAT tone sound?"
By my read, the Turks had more fighters on this sortie than the Russians. I know the SU-35 is a later gen fighter, but 4 F16s to one 35 up close doesn't even sound close to me. I would guess the F4s and 24s line up fairly closely as well, probably with an edge to the f4 as the 24 was IIRC a F111 competitor.
They've updated the link since I posted it, which is cool. And, that appears to be a rundown of this attack sortie/sorties, but not a list of aircraft that were flying. 
Love that F-4s are still airborne and effective.
They've updated that it is a single Su-34. These were all strike/multirole aircraft, but the -16s are the better fighters of the bunch.
But, Russia also has Su-30s in-theater or nearby. Those would be a tough matchup with the Falcons. Plus, those Russian SAM assets are probably itching for payback.
Of more interest to me, though, is that Turkey and Russia are making nice-nice. Almost to an extreme.
Love that F-4s are still airborne and effective.
They've updated that it is a single Su-34. These were all strike/multirole aircraft, but the -16s are the better fighters of the bunch.
But, Russia also has Su-30s in-theater or nearby. Those would be a tough matchup with the Falcons. Plus, those Russian SAM assets are probably itching for payback.
Of more interest to me, though, is that Turkey and Russia are making nice-nice. Almost to an extreme.
They've updated the link since I posted it, which is cool. And, that appears to be a rundown of this attack sortie/sorties, but not a list of aircraft that were flying.
Love that F-4s are still airborne and effective.
They've updated that it is a single Su-34. These were all strike/multirole aircraft, but the -16s are the better fighters of the bunch.
But, Russia also has Su-30s in-theater or nearby. Those would be a tough matchup with the Falcons. Plus, those Russian SAM assets are probably itching for payback.
Of more interest to me, though, is that Turkey and Russia are making nice-nice. Almost to an extreme.
Just an aside. Back in the day when I lived in FT Wayne I worked with a guy in the national guard who flew in F4s as a RIO. He retired after they updated with F16s. He didn't like them. Called them lawn darts.
Oh yeah, that Lawn Dart moniker was from early on. It is a great multi-role platform. Maybe the best in the world. And the fly-by-wire technology and engineered instability were cutting edge technology back in the day.
But, as jack-of-all-trades, it is master of none.
spencer rifle
Grandmaster
Shouldn't be too hard to destabilize that "alliance." Third Rome Russia has been an historic enemy of Ottoman Turkey, and those people have long memories. Sunni Turkey and Shia Iran will fall to killing each other if enough outsiders get out of their way. Same goes for Christian Russia (oppressor of the Caucasus Muslims) and Muslim Turkey and Iran.
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