Man Accidentally Shoots Himself In The Butt At Indiana Mall

[BehindBlueI's]

People don't know what they don't know. Some are willing to learn and some are not.

Just saw this pop up on another forum and seemed appropriate.

 

[2A_Tom]

People don't know what they don't know. Some are willing to learn and some are not.

I thought I had reposted this earlier.

 

[rhino]

I didn't know it had a name, but I saw examples of this Dunning-Kruger Effect in the classroom on a regular basis. I had physics students who would tell me that they were "really good at math," but they just didn't know which formulas to use. After some exchanges of questions and answers, in each and every case (and I mean every one of them without exception), what they really meant was that if given a formula and all of the values for the variables, they could use their calculator to obtain the numeric answer. In most cases it was lost on them that the "right formula" was obtained by 9th grade level algebraic manipulation of the formulas they had available to them. That is, not only could they not do some very simple math, they were unaware that it was necessary, yet at the same time supremely confident in their "math" skills. It was disheartening.

 

[MarkC]

I have cause to wonder if the Dunning-Kruger Effect is amplified by the "give everybody a ribbon" method in use today. These special snowflakes are not challenged, and thus have no opportunity to come up against the wall of their limitations, until they start a job, which may be not until they complete college in many cases.

 

[rhino]

I have cause to wonder if the Dunning-Kruger Effect is amplified by the "give everybody a ribbon" method in use today. These special snowflakes are not challenged, and thus have no opportunity to come up against the wall of their limitations, until they start a job, which may be not until they complete college in many cases.

I think that is very likely.

 

[2A_Tom]

I tend to take the opposite tack, it is so simple, why can't you see it.

Like the 4 rulz.

 

[MohawkSlim]

So, serious question here -

What is one supposed to do with their firearm when in a public restroom? All I've seen so far on here is keep it in the holster, keep your pants above your knees, lay it on something sturdy..... any other options? If it's wrong to coonfinger it or remove it, what do YOU do to keep it secure?

I personally have done everything from sitting it on the changing table to hanging it (by the trigger guard) on the coat hook. I really like the flat paper dispensers because it's easy to set it on those. I will not leave it in the holster in my pants because it weighs my pants down and I don't like my pants touching the (wet) floor of a public restroom nor do I like the neighbors having unabated access. Is it OK for me to simply remove it with my holster and then set it on something? Even if my holster is only a strip of leather that doesn't all the way cover the trigger guard?

What's acceptable, INGO? (And, FYI, I'm not buying a "good" holster, nor am I going to smash my balls together whilst I poop.)



Semi-related,

I can understand why someone would carry on an empty chamber and I even believe the data he can tout is better than what BBI has presented. I haven't seen any data at all to support guns go off without being loaded. Not a single one. All Kirk's talk of "Low Dead" isn't supported by data that guns go off without rounds in the chamber, it's still human error that loads the gun up before it goes off. Since science says unloaded guns don't go off, carrying on an empty chamber is absolutely the safest way to carry a firearm. If your risk assessment is such that you don't want an AD/ND, that's the way to carry.

Believe it or not, some people carry a gun they don't need to be ready immediately. They assess the risk as, "Maybe I'll hear shots from a few doors down." Or, maybe they believe they'll be sitting in the diner and the robbers come in, jump up on a table and then wave guns around yelling, "put the money in the bag." (Go on, honey bunny.) Their defensive scenario isn't, "random victimization" or the classic mugging down the dark alley. Theirs is "99% of the time I won't need this gun but just in case I do I can take the time to get it out, get it ready, and then fight if I want."

What I find strangest about the whole, "100% ready all the time" is it's yelled loudest by people who "aren't allowed" to carry 100% of the time. They say things like, "I'm not allowed to carry at _____." They say you need to carry with a round chambered, a fast-access holster, and stay concealed so you can "surprise" the bad guy but these cats don't even carry their gun 24/7. "Well, when I am allowed to carry, I carry like the stats say I should."

Folks.... there's more than one way to carry.

 

[chipbennett]

So, serious question here -

...

What's acceptable, INGO? (And, FYI, I'm not buying a "good" holster, nor am I going to smash my balls together whilst I poop.)

For me? If my pants come off, such as in a bathroom stall, the external safety is engaged first. (Pants on the ground = "not properly holstered", and "properly holstered" is the only condition in which I disengage the safety.) If I'm wearing an IWB holster, I have to be careful to adjust it so that it sits between my legs, barrel pointed downward/as safe a direction as possible - and pants and holster not touching the floor. If it's my OWB holster (level 2 retention), I'm less concerned about the holster being between my legs (and somewhat less practical as well), but still positioned in as safe a direction as possible, and not touching the floor.

In both cases, sometimes that requires drawing pants somewhat taught with my knees/lower legs - which also can be difficult, depending on the stall.

In general, I try to do my business at home, to avoid the situation whenever possible.

Semi-related,

...

Folks.... there's more than one way to carry.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I can understand why someone would carry on an empty chamber and I even believe the data he can tout is better than what BBI has presented. I haven't seen any data at all to support guns go off without being loaded. Not a single one.

Guns that aren't loaded don't go off. People who carry empty chamber don't always realize they chambered a round and because they are not used to carrying with a cartridge in the pipe they treat it as unloaded. Like I said, empty chamber carry leads to confusion as to the status of the gun. I'm not guessing at this or doing some thought exercises. These are the statements people who just shot themselves or someone else tell me, and cartridge counts confirm it. They just don't know how the gun got loaded. They get startled by a possible threat, chamber a round, and then don't know what to do next.

If I pull my gun and don't need it, I just put it away. If Empty Chamber Ernie pulls his gun and chambers it and the vicious animal turns out to be a not vicious animal...now what? You going to jack with your gun to get it back in empty chamber mode? In the aftermath of an adrenaline dump from fight or flight kicking in, particularly for those not used to violent confrontation? Actual ECEs have shot themselves in the hand jacking with the gun, shot themselves in the thigh/buttocks reholstering, or shot someone/something later on when they forgot to clear it again later on before the required trigger pull to break it down.

Empty chamber carry is simply not safer in the real world like it is in hypotheticals and thought exercises. It's a needless complication to both use and to administrative handling that results in less safety during both. If anyone has real data from actual experience that contradicts this, post it up. Imagination of how things might go is not data.

 

[MohawkSlim]

If anyone has real data from actual experience that contradicts this, post it up. Imagination of how things might go is not data.

An absence of incidents is data. If it never happens then the number is zero.

I'm with you on ECEs being unsure of what condition their firearm is in and them being less sure in handling it and, therefore, more prone to making a mistake. However, if 99.9% of ECEs will never need to load their firearm doesn't it stand to reason they should keep it unloaded - especially if they're unfamiliar or untrained? I'm not saying they should stay that way, just making the case for untrained/unfamiliar to keep it unloaded until needed.

What I see happening in these "how do you carry?" debates is there's one school that believes the gun should be ready to go at a moment's notice and that's the only way to carry and then the other side that says they'll never need their gun so they should carry it the safest way possible. With training and practice, the safety issue is removed but we all know the vast majority of those who carry guns do not train/practice. (Data not withstanding, of course.)

 

[BehindBlueI's]

An absence of incidents is data. If it never happens then the number is zero.

I'm with you on ECEs being unsure of what condition their firearm is in and them being less sure in handling it and, therefore, more prone to making a mistake. However, if 99.9% of ECEs will never need to load their firearm doesn't it stand to reason they should keep it unloaded - especially if they're unfamiliar or untrained? I'm not saying they should stay that way, just making the case for untrained/unfamiliar to keep it unloaded until needed.

What I see happening in these "how do you carry?" debates is there's one school that believes the gun should be ready to go at a moment's notice and that's the only way to carry and then the other side that says they'll never need their gun so they should carry it the safest way possible. With training and practice, the safety issue is removed but we all know the vast majority of those who carry guns do not train/practice. (Data not withstanding, of course.)

The number of incidents is not zero, as posted. ECE chambers at the range. He chambers without thinking about it by reversing the clearing steps. His chamber doesn't stay empty and unwanted noise occurs. His "safety" of an unloaded gun does not work and sometimes plays against him. Looking at "unloaded guns" in a vacuum, yes, they are impossible to fire. Looking at the real world were "unloaded" or "partially loaded" guns interface with humans...nope.

The military often uses empty chamber carry in garrison. When you turn your gun back in, do they just have you drop the mag and call it a day? No. You use a clearing barrel/sand barrel, clear it with the muzzle in something that's safe to absorb a bullet, then the armorer double checks your work. Why? Because cartridges end up in chambers. DynCorp was so tough on this you GOT FIRED AND SENT HOME if you had a cartridge in the chamber at the clearing barrel...and guys got fired and sent home and were absolutely shocked when the cartridge kicked out at the clearing barrel.

 

[MohawkSlim]

I guess the part I'm missing is how folks who aren't trained and competent enough to walk around with empty chambers will somehow benefit (safety-wise) from having loaded chambers. If the insinuation is they'll now treat it like it's loaded I'd have to disagree because they've already shown they're not "ALWAYS" type people.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I guess the part I'm missing is how folks who aren't trained and competent enough to walk around with empty chambers will somehow benefit (safety-wise) from having loaded chambers. If the insinuation is they'll now treat it like it's loaded I'd have to disagree because they've already shown they're not "ALWAYS" type people.

Talk to them after they shoot themselves. They have two sets of gun handling procedures. "Loaded" and "unloaded". They shoot themselves when they apply " unloaded" to a loaded gun. Novices need simplicity, not more decisions, particularly when stressed or distracted. Distraction can be as simple as talking or watching TV while going through clearing procedures. Knowing the gun is loaded, removing the temptation for two sets of handling and the decision making that goes along with it is the benefit.

 

[MCgrease08]

So, serious question here -

What is one supposed to do with their firearm when in a public restroom? All I've seen so far on here is keep it in the holster, keep your pants above your knees, lay it on something sturdy..... any other options? If it's wrong to coonfinger it or remove it, what do YOU do to keep it secure?

I personally have done everything from sitting it on the changing table to hanging it (by the trigger guard) on the coat hook. I really like the flat paper dispensers because it's easy to set it on those. I will not leave it in the holster in my pants because it weighs my pants down and I don't like my pants touching the (wet) floor of a public restroom nor do I like the neighbors having unabated access. Is it OK for me to simply remove it with my holster and then set it on something?

I guess I have never had these concerns because I have never felt the need to remove the holster when talking care of buisiness. Part of this may be due to the fact that I pocket carry a small single stack much of the time (gasp). But even when belt carrying a Glock 19, I simply lower my pants to just below the knee line and buckle the belt on first opening (hole?) so the belt remains fastened and the pressure on my calves keeps everything nice and secure.

Because I use quality gear (dedicated gun belt and good holsters) I don't have to worry about sagging, twisting, or the gun flopping out onto the tile.

I know you've stated several times that you don't feel one needs a dedicated gun belt, but for me personally, I refuse to carry with gear or in a manner that requires me to remove the holster to drop a duece.

 

[chezuki]

FWIW, I carry AIWB and if I absolutely must dook in a public restroom, I use the stall with the changing table and place the holstered pistol (and I mean quality holster, not some cheap ass pos) on the changing table while I handle my business. When I'm finished, the holstered pistol goes back on my belt (and I mean quality belt, not some cheap ass $15 pos) where it belongs.

 

[halfmileharry]

I don't care how you say it. I don't trust an unloaded gun. I've heard they've killed a butt load of people.

 

[HamYankee]

Surprised the venerable 45acp didn't kill the dude.

 

[2A_Tom]

So, serious question here -

What is one supposed to do (1)with their firearm when in a public restroom? All I've seen so far on here is keep it in the holster, keep your pants above your knees, lay it on something sturdy..... any other options? If it's wrong to coonfinger it or remove it, what do YOU do to keep it secure?

I personally have done everything (2) from sitting it on the changing table to hanging it (by the trigger guard) on the coat hook. I really like the flat paper dispensers because it's easy to set it on those. I will not leave it in the holster in my pants because it weighs my pants down and I don't like my pants touching the (wet) floor of a public restroom nor do I like the neighbors having unabated access. Is it OK for me to simply remove it with my holster and then set it on something? Even if my holster is only a strip of leather that doesn't all the way cover the trigger guard?

What's acceptable, INGO? (And, FYI, I'm not buying a "good" holster, nor am I going to smash my balls together whilst I poop.)

1 As for me, I carry my EDC at 3 o'clock owb and my backup IAWB on a biotech belt. I am a drop to the ankles kind of guy (more roomy that way). The belt is rigid enough that both pistols stand up. I only remove pistols from holsters to put them in their storage holsters.

2 I attempt to do nearly everything I do the same way every time to build habituation. I don't need to start second guessing myself under pressure.

Anecdote: The other day that I was handed a pistol, that had the slide locked and chamber empty, that I was unfamiliar with the slide release and had trouble releasing the slide. I had always trained to pull the slide to the rear to release it. (per Massad Ayoob) At that moment I realized that it had been a while since I had practiced dry drills and was rusty. So I'll fix that.

 

[lonehoosier]

I guess I have never had these concerns because I have never felt the need to remove the holster when talking care of buisiness. Part of this may be due to the fact that I pocket carry a small single stack much of the time (gasp). But even when belt carrying a Glock 19, I simply lower my pants to just below the knee line and buckle the belt on first opening (hole?) so the belt remains fastened and the pressure on my calves keeps everything nice and secure.

Because I use quality gear (dedicated gun belt and good holsters) I don't have to worry about sagging, twisting, or the gun flopping out onto the tile.

I know you've stated several times that you don't feel one needs a dedicated gun belt, but for me personally, I refuse to carry with gear or in a manner that requires me to remove the holster to drop a duece.

^^^^^^^^^^ T H I S ^^^^^^^^^^

I have no problem doing that why'll carrying my EDC.

 

[trucker777]

1 for "Israeli" style carry. I've heard the debate a thousand times... as a civilian and not a first responder, what works for me, yada yada, my first reaction should be to flee from a threat... or at least seek cover first.