Suit Against Bible Study in Schools

[Route 45]

Personally, I DID teach all this at home. The cost of social programs and of incarcerating such a huge number of the general population show`s that clearly, many parents are not teaching this at home, and the cost of it to society.

Even if the ridiculous notion that bible study in schools would stop all of our society's ills was true, it would remain irrelevant. Public schools are not the place for religious instruction.

 

[Twangbanger]

As diverse as Christianity is, I am astonished that believers would support it. If I were spiritually inclined, I could not imagine trusting a public school to build my kid's spirituality.

I am too. But from what I can gather from believers who support it, some believe Christians in America will always be far enough in the majority to ensure that the number of times government mucks it up (or teaches something completely different) will be far exceeded by the number of times they get it right, and the benefit derived from that.

After the "transgender bathroom" exercise we just went through, I don't know how you can still think that, but some do.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Even if the ridiculous notion that bible study in schools would stop all of our society's ills was true, it would remain irrelevant. Public schools are not the place for religious instruction.

Thank you for your opinion.

Why do you think taxpayer funded buildings should not be used as gathering places for taxpayer activities? Bible studies are done after hours and can count as a "pre-care" or "after care" for kids needing a place to be for a bit before parents are around. What is the harm in a group providing a safe place with structured activities that are completely voluntary? If it's not the place, you must perceive a negative or harm in doing it. What is it?

just curious, are homes an acceptable place for school?

can Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts meet in a school? Can a school be used for a wedding?


http://www.christianpost.com/news/n...after-us-supreme-court-rejects-appeal-136691/

 

[KLB]

Thank you for your opinion.

Why do you think taxpayer funded buildings should not be used as gathering places for taxpayer activities? Bible studies are done after hours and can count as a "pre-care" or "after care" for kids needing a place to be for a bit before parents are around. What is the harm in a group providing a safe place with structured activities that are completely voluntary? If it's not the place, you must perceive a negative or harm in doing it. What is it?

just curious, are homes an acceptable place for school?

can Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts meet in a school? Can a school be used for a wedding?


NYC Mayor's Controversial Move Allows Churches to Use City Schools for Worship After US Supreme Court Rejects Appeal

The OP was not about using a school off hours, which is where the discussion sprang from.

I also read his statement as more of the public school being the source of the instruction, not just the location.

 

[jamil]

Thank you for your opinion.

Why do you think taxpayer funded buildings should not be used as gathering places for taxpayer activities? Bible studies are done after hours and can count as a "pre-care" or "after care" for kids needing a place to be for a bit before parents are around. What is the harm in a group providing a safe place with structured activities that are completely voluntary? If it's not the place, you must perceive a negative or harm in doing it. What is it?

just curious, are homes an acceptable place for school?

can Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts meet in a school? Can a school be used for a wedding?


NYC Mayor's Controversial Move Allows Churches to Use City Schools for Worship After US Supreme Court Rejects Appeal

The OP was not about using a school off hours, which is where the discussion sprang from.

I also read his statement as more of the public school being the source of the instruction, not just the location.

Even as a source of instruction, if it can be done in a way that doesn't establish a religion as "de facto", and it actually helps student's path to a career, then I don't have a problem with it. Not sure Christians would be all that okay with schools having in addition to their classes, Muslim class, Hindu class, Atheist class, Voodoo class, Satanist class, etc.

 

[T.Lex]

IMHO, the issue in the OP is less about religion than it is about state sponsored bias in freedom of association.

A school should have a framework for what voluntary clubs are appropriate and not. Unfortunately, they need rules about this because people are jerks and would have a KKK club. Anyway, if a group meets the criteria, after minimal content review, then it should be allowed.

Carmel High School recently had an issue with a pro-life club that was duly formed under the rules putting up a poster that some special snowflakes didn't like, even though it didn't violate any rules. Once the clubs are duly formed, they need to be treated equally. That teaches the appropriate lessons to the kids that attend, IMHO - including impartiality of authority.

 

[eldirector]

Appears that this is a public school with an "elective" Christian Bible Study "course" as part of the curriculum.

Absolutely terrible idea. Can you even imagine what Common Core Christianity would look like?

IMHO, public schools have extended their "programs" well beyond the point of absurdity. This is yet another example.

 

[HoughMade]

We NEED Bible study in schools if only so that virulent atheists will be telling the truth when they start out their vitriol with "yeah, well, I've read the Bible..." Because, I've yet to see any actual evidence to back up that claim. They all read the same atheist websites with cherry-picked quotes taken out of context, but that's really not the same.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I can remember having "Weekday Religious Education" in gradeschool. Participation was voluntary, and it was held in a trailer on the edge of the school property. Just about everyone attended though. Is this still permissible today? I don't remember who ran the program but I don't think it was a regular school teacher. It was mostly (if I recall) studying bible verses and then answering a series of questions correctly before moving up to the next level. Kind of a reading comprehension type of thing really. I don't remember any real "worship" happening.

 

[HoughMade]

So, we can debate whether or not a public school (during the school day) is a good place for religious instruction. I see both sides and have a tendency to side with "no". However, I really don't see the need for this debate to rise to constitutional proportions.

It is clear that no child is forced to participate.

Not every preference issue is a constitutional one.

 

[T.Lex]

So, we can debate whether or not a public school (during the school day) is a good place for religious instruction. I see both sides and have a tendency to side with "no".

I think that's a fair question that is related, but different, from the constitutional one.

My kids have gone/are going to a Catholic school - at this point college, high school and middle school. Religious instruction through 8th grade was daily, with mass 3x per week. High school had some religious instruction ("Theology" class, which covered topics beyond Catholicism) and an occasional mass. The one in college has no mandated mass attendance and religion appears to be in the context of history and historical political conflicts.

The kids have gotten good grades in what I consider to be the "main" classes at every level (so far). And not just my kids. Other families who've gone to public schools with the parochial school background appear to be well-prepared for mainstream classrooms.

So, at least from my anecdotal observations, there's nothing inherently in conflict between "regular" schoolwork and religious studies. I see no reason why changing the venue to public schools would change the outcome.

As an additional anecdotal aside, there are some areas where the Catholic schools are regarded as a viable alternative to public schools, even for non-Catholics. I know, for instance, in Grand Rapids (predominantly Dutch Reform), the Catholic schools are full of non-Catholics who don't want their kids to go to public school. (Well, that was true 25 years ago, and had been historically true before that, so I don't think its changed.)

ETA:
I suspect the real problem with a program like that would be the curriculum. Think about our "civil religious thread" and how many differences there are. Unless the community was VERY homogenous in that regard, there'd be some parent that didn't like one or another of the lessons or tests and the s would hit the fan.

 

[PaulF]

We NEED Bible study in schools if only so that virulent atheists will be telling the truth when they start out their vitriol with "yeah, well, I've read the Bible..." Because, I've yet to see any actual evidence to back up that claim. They all read the same atheist websites with cherry-picked quotes taken out of context, but that's really not the same.

What makes you think that public school bible classes wouldn't be taught from those same "atheist" websites you seem to think we all go to for information? Public schools would not be able to prohibit Atheist teachers from teaching those classes.

...and I take issue with your characterization of atheist sincerity when it comes to having read various religious texts. Survey after survey shows that American Atheists score higher on religious knowledge tests than do their American Christian counterparts...whatever it is that we are doing is working better than what Christians themselves do.

I would ask you not to dismiss us out of hand like this. When I say I have read the Bible, I mean it...I have read two different "modern" English translations (cover to cover, really), and attempted to get through the KJV...but I couldn't get past the language and writing style. I have also read the Book of Mormon, and the Qur'an (English, obvs).

For many of us it is the Bible itself that pushes us away from Christianity.

 

[HoughMade]

What makes you think that public school bible classes wouldn't be taught from those same "atheist" websites you seem to think we all go to for information? Public schools would not be able to prohibit Atheist teachers from teaching those classes.

It was sarcasm.

...and I take issue with your characterization of atheist sincerity when it comes to having read various religious texts. Survey after survey shows that American Atheists score higher on religious knowledge tests than do their American Christian counterparts...whatever it is that we are doing is working better than what Christians themselves do.

I don't know every atheist. My perspective is completely subjective based upon my experience. Also, I don't know these surveys you speak of, but I've never been surveyed. Again, my perspective is based on my own experience. Would love to take this test or survey or whatever.

I would ask you not to dismiss us out of hand like this. When I say I have read the Bible, I mean it...I have read two different "modern" English translations (cover to cover, really), and attempted to get through the KJV...but I couldn't get past the language and writing style. I have also read the Book of Mormon, and the Qur'an (English, obvs).

I have no doubt that there are atheists who have read and studied the Bible. Some of them teach in divinity schools. But understand that Christianity was never meant to be objectively provable by physical means. If that is what anyone is looking for, it won't be found. In my experience it has been difficult to have a meaningful discussion with an atheist who is bent on ridicule. Yes, not all, but that subset.

For many of us it is the Bible itself that pushes us away from Christianity.

That has a tendency to happen when people place themselves in a position to judge God. Humanities' ways are not Gods' ways so it is not surprising that humans would reject what God has written.

 

[ATM]

...I would ask you not to dismiss us out of hand like this...

Like you dismiss the god of your own imagination?

Why should anyone offer to invest more of themselves in dismissing you than you have?

 

[jamil]

What makes you think that public school bible classes wouldn't be taught from those same "atheist" websites you seem to think we all go to for information? Public schools would not be able to prohibit Atheist teachers from teaching those classes.

...and I take issue with your characterization of atheist sincerity when it comes to having read various religious texts. Survey after survey shows that American Atheists score higher on religious knowledge tests than do their American Christian counterparts...whatever it is that we are doing is working better than what Christians themselves do.

I would ask you not to dismiss us out of hand like this. When I say I have read the Bible, I mean it...I have read two different "modern" English translations (cover to cover, really), and attempted to get through the KJV...but I couldn't get past the language and writing style. I have also read the Book of Mormon, and the Qur'an (English, obvs).

For many of us it is the Bible itself that pushes us away from Christianity.

Paul, this is one area where I wish Atheists were more intellectually honest.

I've taken those "bible" quizzes designed by Atheists. They have questions like, "how should parents deal with unruly kids?". Of course, the "correct" answer is scored by selecting the answer which says, have the elders stone the kid. And of course, just about any Atheist will answer that one with the harshest punishment listed, whether they've read Deuteronomy or not.

But Christians would tend to choose the answer that is closest to what they believe how New Testament Christians should discipline their kids, which is not stoning. Why can't they ask the questions honestly instead of wording it like they're trying to get Christians to answer it incorrectly? It makes them less credible.

C'mon. Let's be honest. If we think we know the bible better than most Christians, take tests from Christian sources. Then we'll have something to say that's honest.

 

[foszoe]

For many of us it is the Bible itself that pushes us away from Christianity.

Or rather your interpretation. When I dialogue with people, I try to see how they can possibly be right.

Athiests don't usually return the favor.

I encounter many who read it anachronistically

 

[PaulF]

Paul, this is one area where I wish Atheists were more intellectually honest.

I've taken those "bible" quizzes designed by Atheists. They have questions like, "how should parents deal with unruly kids?". Of course, the "correct" answer is scored by selecting the answer which says, have the elders stone the kid. And of course, just about any Atheist will answer that one with the harshest punishment listed, whether they've read Deuteronomy or not.

But Christians would tend to choose the answer that is closest to what they believe how New Testament Christians should discipline their kids, which is not stoning. Why can't they ask the questions honestly instead of wording it like they're trying to get Christians to answer it incorrectly? It makes them less credible.

C'mon. Let's be honest. If we think we know the bible better than most Christians, take tests from Christian sources. Then we'll have something to say that's honest.

I know the "surveys" to which you are referring..."gawker"-style clickbait drivel, I agree.

What about the Pew research poll from 2010?

U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey | Pew Research Center

There are others, and the ones with which I am familiar a reveal the same trend: American Christians are less informed about religion (their own or others) than many other American demographics.

...I only make this point as a response to Hougmade's dig at poorly informed atheists: there are far more poorly informed Christians in this country try than there are Atheists...well informed or otherwise.

I wasn't trying to make a point that the average Atheist has an encyclopedic biblical knowledge...only that the average Christian isn't in that different a situation from the average Atheist.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

How is it not obvious? Public schools are not the place for religious instruction. Period. The picture merely demonstrates the unintended consequences to those who can't see past the end of their nose.

They can be. If the folks in Dearborn want to have the call to prayer over their intercom, what do I care? If Mitchell schools want to have bible study classes, I'm ok with that. If your kids were going there and you wanted to opt out, you should be able to do that. Freedom to choose and freedom of people to associate.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

The government run public school system is a failure in teaching science, math and the proper use of the English language...why in the the world would you want them teaching your kids religion?

As diverse as Christianity is, I am astonished that believers would support it. If I were spiritually inclined, I could not imagine trusting a public school to build my kid's spirituality.

I went to school in the Bible Belt, back before they ran God out of the building and no one was teaching religion then. This is a strawman argument. Yeah, they'd have a devotional in the morning, during the same time period we did the national anthem and pledge of allegiance. There was no sermon or anything like this -- they were not "teaching" us religion in school.

 

[eldirector]

They can be. If the folks in Dearborn want to have the call to prayer over their intercom, what do I care? If Mitchell schools want to have bible study classes, I'm ok with that. If your kids were going there and you wanted to opt out, you should be able to do that. Freedom to choose and freedom of people to associate.

.
By this article, I saw that kids could (technically) opt-out. How do their parents opt-out of paying for it?