Police Mag Dump

[Peacekeeper3073]

It wouldn’t have hurt my feelings if LMPD had backed out and called in a B52 raid on the park. I was surprised there were cops in that area to begin with.

Louisville is completely woke now, there’s no saving them.

The Mayor, Chief. and council are all a joke over there. Would explain why they are over three hundred officers short with another fifty or so retiring this month or next.

 

[BigRed]

The Mayor, Chief. and council are all a joke over there. Would explain why they are over three hundred officers short with another fifty or so retiring this month or next.

Sounds like Indianapolis.

 

[littletommy]

The Mayor, Chief. and council are all a joke over there. Would explain why they are over three hundred officers short with another fifty or so retiring this month or next.

Yeah, I feel sorry for the ones that stay, knew several of them from working at the range, nice people for the most part.

 

[littletommy]

Sounds like Indianapolis.

That’s what happens to once great cities, dems move in and spread their cancer, and in a few decades, you got yourself a real ****hole.

 

[Twangbanger]

Sounds like a walking Willie Horton ad.

Knowing the guy's rap sheet, I opened the vid hoping to see dirt clods flying up around him.

 

[churchmouse]

Spray and pray was never taught in the academy or any other training I took.

It is a lack of training. Response under fire.
Yes there are some very well trained LEO out there. But in this new social climate we live in it seems this is not important to the guys in command and their bosses.
Being able to defend themselves and others is no longer Paramount.
I have ran a few rounds with some LEO that openly state they hope to never pull their sidearm. Is this legal pressure. Is this the new way.
Depts don’t budget enough for training as in time/materials and the overall mind set I see is many LEO are not going to train or practice on their nickel.
You guys all know how much I respect our Ingo LEO but these men are top shelf.
To blow off training even if you have to buy a 50 rd box of ammo every other week is an oversight. If you run 10 mags a month it will keep you tuned up well past not even cleaning the pocket burgers off you sidearm.

 

[BankShot]

Definitely a Need for add'l marksmanship Training here.
BTW, this Perp-Hebert Lee: In 2008, at age 16, Lee was fleeing from police when he crashed a stolen car, killing four teenagers who had been told to ride home with him after a youth event.
In 2014, Lee pleaded guilty to leading police on another chase in another stolen car.

Source:
https://www.wdrb.com/news/louisvill...cle_0e484c58-2310-11e9-981e-1fe62c0b0f2d.html

I remember when that happened. I didn't realize that was the same guy until I saw your post.

 

[ECS686]

My thoughts as a retired LE trainer on the Fed side. There is too much emphasis on shooting or when to shoot but Nobody is Training Officers when to STOP SHOOTING!

It needs to be articulated it’s more about a balance of split times and assessment speed. IE the first 4 shots were justified but the last 4 of the 8 maybe not etc.

Or if you shoot the upper thoracic cavity with one or two rounds you probably won’t need to shoot the guy with a whole magazines.

I started with revolvers went through the auto 9mm to 40 or 45 back to 9.
Early 9mm days that whole “shoot til the threat goes away” BS started (the original mag dump) and some have kept that doctrine

So teaching folks when to stop by teaching them how to assess things properly would be a good place to start.

JMHO

 

[2tonic]

He should have shot a gubernatorial candidate instead of a cop.
Then they wouldn't shoot back, and he'd be back on the street in 24 hrs.

 

[tomcat13]

That’s what happens to once great cities, dems move in and spread their cancer, and in a few decades, you got yourself a real ****hole.

Exactly what is transpiring currently in the US, on a Much Larger scale.

 

[STEEL CORE]

Yes I remember being trained to shoot until the threat was eliminated.
1-16 rounds of .40, reload and keep shooting if you have to.
It’s why you have spare magazines on your duty belt.

 

[DadSmith]

Yes I remember being trained to shoot until the threat was eliminated.
1-16 rounds of .40, reload and keep shooting if you have to.
It’s why you have spare magazines on your duty belt.

With the way they shoot they should Probably go with the CZ P10F and it's 19 or 21rd magazines plus spare magazines.

 

[ECS686]

Yes I remember being trained to shoot until the threat was eliminated.
1-16 rounds of .40, reload and keep shooting if you have to.
It’s why you have spare magazines on your duty belt.

That mentality was (and is if one still thinks that way) the problem. The spare is in a rare occasion it is needed or for a mechanical issue with the primary mag.

While not all agency instructors are bad several serve nothing more than their own ego or as simple administrators of a yearly test as a safety monitor no more no less. Good ones go to training in their own and bring back relevant training changes and sell it to the administration and introduce it.

Agencies refusing to change (either the admin or those safety pup instructors in it for the name tag) are why agency’s get in the funny papers.

Perhaps those should research the “Bakersfield Qual” as in Bakersfield/Kern County California proficiency course.

 

[mmpsteve]

Stole a car, crashed it in a high speed chase, killed 4 people.

The police should have shot more and aimed better.

Not only did he kill 4 youths riding with him from some kind of Youth Camp, the city paid out over $1.5 million to his victims because of the high-speed chase. This felon is the gift that keeps on giving, creating havoc and misery wherever he goes. And no one with the power to do something about it seems to care.

https://www.wdrb.com/news/city-of-l...cle_8d2efbe8-c5b3-5de1-bdbe-57a2f54f98e3.html

.

 

[BugI02]

I understand the logically fallacy, but truthfully, if you're missing the target does more of that behavior seem appropriate? Or would better marksmanship increase the odds of success?

I am thinking specifically of the Greenwood Mall incident. Please honestly assess whether you would be able to see hits on target you were making at the distance to the bathroom down that hallway while taking return fire

If the target wasn't going down and the threat wasn't visibly neutralized I would keep sending rounds until that result was achieved, especially if I had a spare mag (which I always do) and there was minimal risk of innocents in the field of fire (which there was)

A lot of people wouldn't even be able to see and evaluate hits on a paper target at that range, with no target movement and no return fire. I have never been under fire but I tend to think the situation would make me a little excited, maybe you have and YMMV. I do believe if the shooter had been allowed to obtain cover in the bathroom the situation would have been much worse and am in complete agreement with the choices Eli made

I can easily see how coming under fire as a LEO would have the same effect, leading to a cylinder or mag dump. Perhaps reread Bill Jordan's No Second Place Winner or the excellent article in Recoil magazine (issue 39) on the Platt and Maddux shootout in Miami. If you could calmly execute superior marksmanship under those type of circumstances, more power to you

 

[Ark]

I am thinking specifically of the Greenwood Mall incident. Please honestly assess whether you would be able to see hits on target you were making at the distance to the bathroom down that hallway while taking return fire

If the target wasn't going down and the threat wasn't visibly neutralized I would keep sending rounds until that result was achieved, especially if I had a spare mag (which I always do) and there was minimal risk of innocents in the field of fire (which there was)

A lot of people wouldn't even be able to see and evaluate hits on a paper target at that range, with no target movement and no return fire. I have never been under fire but I tend to think the situation would make me a little excited, maybe you have and YMMV. I do believe if the shooter had been allowed to obtain cover in the bathroom the situation would have been much worse and am in complete agreement with the choices Eli made

I can easily see how coming under fire as a LEO would have the same effect, leading to a cylinder or mag dump. Perhaps reread Bill Jordan's No Second Place Winner or the excellent article in Recoil magazine (issue 39) on the Platt and Maddux shootout in Miami. If you could calmly execute superior marksmanship under those type of circumstances, more power to you

The guy falling down is my feedback and my intention is to shoot until I've received it or until ammunition is exhausted. If your backstop is clear I have no problem with continuing fire, that's why we invented double stack mags. If he stays on his feet through ten hits before toppling over that's his problem.

Lack of feedback is a problem in all real world shooting. Humans don't make ding noises and reticles don't flash when you get hits.

 

[BE Mike]

Rapid unaimed rounds down range are a problem, not a solution.

 

[manifest destiny]

Louisville seems to have slid into the yuk column, if you will. The dead perp - for some reason I'm finding it hard impossible to shed a tear... Their police force also has or had some issues too. Their was the LEO that chose to fire blindly into an apt. building while serving a warrant for a man that didn't live there. Then there were two? maybe three? LEO's popped for child rape/seduction/whatever. It revolved around some type of kids camp... can't remember the specifics. I've never been a sworn officer responsible for taking calls/runs. I can only imagine it would be a thankless job. But if that's your job, asking for your best shouldn't be asking too much.

“If a man is called to be a street sweeper. He should sweep streets even as a Michelangelo painted , or Beethoven composed music or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all hosts of heaven and earth pause to say;

Here lives a great sweeper who did his job well ".”​

― Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[BugI02]

Rapid unaimed rounds down range are a problem, not a solution.

The assumption that they would be unaimed is incorrect. The discussion centers around whether you could tell where they are landing on a target like the Greenwood Mall shooter well enough to decide to stop shooting before the target dropped. If you fired two or three and stopped to assess the effect that would seem unwise. We are not talking 5 yds, more like 12 or 13. Are you saying you could tell where your hits were on a moving, twisting target?

Take the Jayland Walker shooting in Akron. Multiple units involved in a car chase during which the suspect fires on pursuers from the car at least twice with a handgun. Suspect eventually bails and a foot chase ensues with at least eight officers involved. Although the suspect left the gun in his car, those chasing him do not have this knowledge so he is considered armed and dangerous. Several attempts to tase him fail, all the while the foot chase is still going on; then the suspect turns at bay and reportedly reaches into the wasteland of his pants. I don't know the official count, but likely every officer on the scene lights him up

Do you really think, no matter what the level of training, any LEO in that situation would only take 2 or 3 shots and then be able to conclude they were good, disabling hits and that was enough? I don't think so. I think everybody fired until he was obviously down and out of commission and the longer it took him to drop the more times he will get shot or shot at

 

[Destro]

Serious question, how many were the correct amount of rounds to use in this specific situation?