12ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Big Bores--

[hubel458]

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..

Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a
bunch of them and so does McGowen.

Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
work in our 12ga sabot..

But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.

Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
way to keep them together group wise.Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,

Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.


.

There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..


https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos




Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.

Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.

And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire
forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED

 

[hubel458]

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.


One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.


They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.


We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.


But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..


For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.


Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

 

[hubel458]

Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions.
Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.

Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.

And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control
speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle
powders with all the deterrent on the outside.


There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..


Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140
into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work. Ed

 

[hubel458]

We got guys wildcatting our 585HE case,

Here is picture of that 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.

Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.

We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers.


And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand,
we have barrels....Ed

 

[hubel458]

Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around

Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny,. if you need long range work.

The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.


About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs, etc, Not really, just use one for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed

About our 2.17" 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.
It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.
With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet.
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.
Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..


In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.

Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...Ed

 

[hubel458]

A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever.


Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.

Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the MPI stock..

On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.


So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads,
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps.

Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN.
Known as, Rocky Mtn Rifles, video on Youtube of them testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzQjRGfT1A






Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed

 

[hubel458]

I feel that Bruce Bertram has done a huge amount for big bore shooting.


We have heard that fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, is


working with Bertram in making order of the full length 12ga From Hell cases.


Drawn cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.


Any wanting some, and maybe get in on the run, contact Bertram


at the email -- b.bertram1@bigpond.com ...... Ed

 

[BogWalker]

What's it running to get an NEF single rebarreled to 12 gauge FH?

 

[hubel458]

Run in a reamer, the major cost is a 12ga FH reamer for the 3.85" case,
I made original 12ga FH chamber for me, with lathe tool, others bought
special reamers for that, cost over $200 for the reamers.

If you want to stop at 3.5" case, and use 3.5" RMC brass and 3.5" plastic
a lot smiths have them, our guy does
have that one, charges $100 including shipping.Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.

The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One that is close
that we have, is the Magtech.


Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel,
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE.


We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.

Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job.. Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is folder shotgun, the guys set up as 24ga FH.
Shoots nice, looks nice, it a more expensive break action,
compared to many others.

Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.

Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..

Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc, with
variety of bullets..Can get energy like regular elephant guns..Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.

Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases

Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in..
It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle mounted it on the bolt
further bac, so the port could be lengthened for our long case.
Needs polishing and blueing, scope rail added.ED

 

[hubel458]

There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with
locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.
Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.


Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.

Here is another view of the great camo job on the
585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed

 

[hubel458]

.
Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from helix driver


wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to go in cup.


Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga one BPI has.

Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.


It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading,


by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a


Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported


the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB.

That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The


2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,


from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right.


He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..


Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.

Here is picture of a case a Trex owner made using our 585 brass, by putting


a piece of 11/16 tubing ,cut a piece 2/10 of an inch long with a tube cutter chamfered


the cut side a bit and tapped it on the case down to the belt with the brass pipe


and fireformed it in the T Rex chamber.......Made a perfect fitting case.


Cut our brass to 3" to fit shorter trex specs. He was out of brass


and couldn't find more, so he invented his own. And our rim was big


enough so his extractor still worked ok....His original Trex case base is .685"


and our rim and belt on first case run, is .655" diameter, and base ahead


of the belt on unfired cases .631" and the brass sleave pushed up tight to the


belt just takes up that little difference. Ed.

 

[hubel458]

We have heard that fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, is working


with Bertram in making a run of the full length 12ga From Hell cases.


Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.


Any wanting to get some, and get in on the run, contact Bertram


at the email ----- b.bertram1@bigpond.com ......










Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal.......


.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets.


Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,


Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms


muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make


these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..




Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target,


a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.


The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid was superb, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).

Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong.


The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of Lawton action bolt with our 585 case in it,


and it will do for any necked down wildcats also. Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan


Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.

Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering


for our case as it came from production line,.

I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots.


We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.


Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted


a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and


handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,

Ed