40 better than 9 ?

[Bennettjh]

I'm a 9 guy myself. Just sort of what I gravitated to.

 

[88E30M50]

Arguing over who's caliber is better is like arguing who's spouse is better. Both are really personal choices.

My attraction to .40 is based on how I shoot it along with its performance in the capacity to cause damage. No matter how you cut it, .401 is bigger than .356 and the difference still holds after expansion. If I could put 4 rounds of 9 into a target in the same time as I can with .40 or .45, I might begin to carry it. I recently picked up a CZ 75B that might just make that possible. I could never get there with my G19s, so both were sold. The G23 has always worked well for me as have my 1911s in .45, so that's what I carry. That 75B might change things up if I can keep the groups tight and fast.

 

[gregkl]

Seems like a lot of USPSA competitors shoot .40 caliber.

 

[Mustang1911]

What nobody in the current 9mm fad will ever consider is kinetic energy and energy transfer. While it's true that 9mm 40S&W and 45ACP all penetrate ballistics gel practically the same distance, that's because the bullets are all designed and manufactured to all penetrate similarly. What ISN'T equal is the amount of energy each round carries with it. If just poking a hole into a target and penetrating approximately 14-16" (or whatever distance the FBI etc considers to be optimum) was enough, everybody would be carrying a 22LR or 25ACP with a bullet that's designed to penetrate 14"-16" because there's less recoil, you can shoot faster and more accurately, and carry more ammo(which is the 9mm argument). But for some reason, apparently 9mm has all of the "modern bullet technology" but 40S&W and 45ACP are still shooting 30 year old FMJs. If 9mm bullet technology has gotten better, hasn't that technology been carried to all other calibers using the same style of bullets???

In case you can't tell I'm NOT a fan of 9mm as a duty/personal defense etc. round and unfortunately those that do not understand history are doomed to repeat it. While 9mm does have it's place, to me it's better suited as a range/competition gun, or for a small/micro sized gun that's either a backup gun or an ultra deep concealment gun where size is the biggest concern. Maybe for somebody who is extremely recoil sensitive, but that's more of a training (or lack there of) issue. I work with some people who aren't 5' 100lbs soaking wet with a gun belt and vest on, who figured out how to shoot a 12ga shotgun but don't like 40S&W because of the recoil. 40S&W is a decent compromise caliber to have a 9mm size frame gun but to have a round that carries more energy. Personally I'd much prefer either 45ACP or 10mm to keep a decent amount of energy per round. But until the next Miami style shootout when people realize yet again that 9mm is an underpowered round, I'll just be considered "the guy that's overcompensating".

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Kinetic energy and energy transfer in handgun rounds is a distinction without a difference People do carry a .22 that'll penetrate 14-16", they call it a .223. In rifle calibers at rifle speeds, it matters In pistol calibers and pistol speeds, irrelevant. Where the bullet goes, what it destroys, and how dedicated the injured person is to the cause matter.

Generally speaking, the .40 is better at intermediate barriers. I've seen it first hand with a young fellow who had a bad day and was shot through the rear window of a truck with both a 9mm and a .40. With no intermediate barriers, the differences are slim to none. If my job wants me to carry a 9, I will. A .40, I will. A .45, I will.

I *suspect* but cannot prove that psychological stops are influenced by noise and muzzle flash. They are scarier, in other words, which would partially explain the success of the .357 magnum loads that both struck the suspect and set their clothing on fire. Other than that, and the intermediate barrier issues which are mostly overcome with a bonded heavy-for-caliber bullet...meh.

 

[rhino]

Seems like a lot of USPSA competitors shoot .40 caliber.

That's because in Limited Division, it produces the best results overall in terms of getting the most points per second.

 

[Double T]

Discussion of kinetic energy, and energy transfer. I love it.

the kinetic energy of my carry load vs other calibers of same MFG:
135 gr 9mm Hornady critical duty, 961fps@50yd, 277ft/lbs energy
175gr .40 CD, 948fps@50yd, 349ft/lb
220 45 +P CD, 927fps@50yd, 420ft/lb

fairly similar results at 50 yds all things considered. The REAL difference is at the muzzle. more muzzle energy for the projectile equals more felt recoil. Equal and opposite...you know. Physics.

9mm muzzle E-306
40 muzzle E-396
45 +P muzzle E-464 ft/lb

This data means that:
9mm loses 29ft/lb in the first 50 yards.
40 loses 47ft/lb energy in 50yd.
45 +P loses 44 ft/lb of energy in the first 50 yds.

9mm-9.5% energy loss in 1st 50yds.
40=11.9% energy loss in 1st 50 yds.
45+p=9.5% energy loss in 1st 50 yds.


the data on this round alone is pretty staggering AGAINST .40. The 9mm load, and the +P 45 load retain their energy to be able to "transfer" the energy, for much longer. The data is pretty easy to figure out. Sorry if I'm not explaining it well enough. I really tire of the 9 v 40 debate. 40 has merrit up close, but not at a distance. I chose 9mm after doing my own research. This is just ONE load from Hornady's data. Do your own reseach.

 

[STEEL CORE]

I have both and prefer the .40, I actually shoot them a little better than the 9mm and feel more comfortable carrying them. However a ballistics test I witnessed in Muncie a few years ago hosted by the Delaware County Sheriffs department, showed Federal 9mm and .40 in 147 and 165 gr in HST packaged projectile(s) fired out of identical except for caliber Sigs, behaved almost the same in FBI protocol testing.

 

[Birds Away]

I like .40 in the winter. It's just the feeling that the .40 would perform better punching through heavy garments. Sometimes you just go with what gives you confidence.

 

[seagullplayer]

I shoot better than all my friends, so they ask me what they should carry...

 

[Woobie]

What nobody in the current 9mm fad will ever consider is kinetic energy and energy transfer. While it's true that 9mm 40S&W and 45ACP all penetrate ballistics gel practically the same distance, that's because the bullets are all designed and manufactured to all penetrate similarly. What ISN'T equal is the amount of energy each round carries with it. If just poking a hole into a target and penetrating approximately 14-16" (or whatever distance the FBI etc considers to be optimum) was enough, everybody would be carrying a 22LR or 25ACP with a bullet that's designed to penetrate 14"-16" because there's less recoil, you can shoot faster and more accurately, and carry more ammo(which is the 9mm argument). But for some reason, apparently 9mm has all of the "modern bullet technology" but 40S&W and 45ACP are still shooting 30 year old FMJs. If 9mm bullet technology has gotten better, hasn't that technology been carried to all other calibers using the same style of bullets???

In case you can't tell I'm NOT a fan of 9mm as a duty/personal defense etc. round and unfortunately those that do not understand history are doomed to repeat it. While 9mm does have it's place, to me it's better suited as a range/competition gun, or for a small/micro sized gun that's either a backup gun or an ultra deep concealment gun where size is the biggest concern. Maybe for somebody who is extremely recoil sensitive, but that's more of a training (or lack there of) issue. I work with some people who aren't 5' 100lbs soaking wet with a gun belt and vest on, who figured out how to shoot a 12ga shotgun but don't like 40S&W because of the recoil. 40S&W is a decent compromise caliber to have a 9mm size frame gun but to have a round that carries more energy. Personally I'd much prefer either 45ACP or 10mm to keep a decent amount of energy per round. But until the next Miami style shootout when people realize yet again that 9mm is an underpowered round, I'll just be considered "the guy that's overcompensating".

Neither you nor I have the resources the FBI does, and they say pretty much what BBI is saying. Energy isn't much of a thing until you get a projectile up around mach 2, or "hyper velocity." They basically concluded that penetrating clothing and no less than 12" and no more than 18" of ballistics gel gives best performance out of a handgun. In a sense you're poking holes in people. The argument then becomes fewer bigger holes or more smaller holes, and there are merits to both arguments. But the big three pistol calibers all meet the FBI protocols with appropriate projectiles.

 

[VERT]

My wife and 12 year kid shoot quite a bit of 9mm.

.40 seems to have become a pariah.

 

[Woobie]

My wife and 12 year kid shoot quite a bit of 9mm.

.40 seems to have become a pariah.

1. Lol

2. That's unfortunate, too. It's a fine caliber. PD's started figuring out the life expectancy on their .40's was less than 9mm's over many years and thousands of rounds. All of a sudden, people who won't shoot 200 rounds a year started flipping their and ditching their .40's. I never thought the recoil in mine were that bad, but I hated the Smith I had and didn't shoot it, and a P226 isn't going to have that much recoil anyway. I'm sure in a smaller platform it would make a difference to someone who really watched their split times. The good news is, with any luck the used .40 market will yield some good deals in the near future.

 

[VERT]

2. That's unfortunate, too. It's a fine caliber. PD's started figuring out the life expectancy on their .40's was less than 9mm's over many years and thousands of rounds. All of a sudden, people who won't shoot 200 rounds a year started flipping their and ditching their .40's. I never thought the recoil in mine were that bad, but I hated the Smith I had and didn't shoot it, and a P226 isn't going to have that much recoil anyway. I'm sure in a smaller platform it would make a difference to someone who really watched their split times. The good news is, with any luck the used .40 market will yield some good deals in the near future.

.40 is fine. At one time I completely standardized on .40 because of ammunition availability and choice. The cartridge has good performance for the size of gun, similar velocity and trajectory to 9mm with more energy and more frontal area. Within the last 5 years I have switched to 9mm and 45 acp and reload for those (I don't reload .40). Most PDs and certainly most people will never wear out the gun. Let's say a .40 has a 25k round life expectancy. At 30 cents a round that is $7500. And people are worried about replacing a $500 Glock? Split times are different. I shot Que's PPQ in 9mm side by side with my P99 in .40. There was about a 10th of a sec difference in splits. On the timer or in USPSA this is huge, in the real world not so much. .40 in small single stack guns and subcompacts is a handful, stay away. And yes there are great deals to be had on used .40 pistols right now.

 

[Smoker9000]

I like the input, I'm still not convinced that I'm less of a man for shooting a 9mm but thats a good thing

 

[HoughMade]

My wife and 12 year kid shoot quite a bit of 9mm.

.40 seems to have become a pariah.

There certainly nothing wrong with .40, but eventually, it will assume 357 Sig status, out there and a useful, but not a significant part of the conversation. Even now, The Ruger American pistol is only available in 9 and .45 and other manufacturers are paring down their .40 offerings.

 

[Robert Richardson]

If it ain't a .45, it's for sissies

 

[indiucky]

I shoot 9's and catch my fair share of cap about shooting a women's caliber, personally I feel like the guys dishing out said crapped are compensating for some of their own short comings, but if you shoot a 40 and feel that they are superior I would like to here your reasons why.

Good to have you back Harleyrider...Missed you bro....

 

[Snipercop]

I own both and like both. With a well placed shot, either one would be painful. I carry a .40 at work. Rumor has it that IMPD is going back to the 9mm. Not sure if this is true or not. Just heard it through the grapevine. Accuracy, capacity, reliability, ammo availability, and cost are all factors.

 

[chezuki]

If the words "stopping power" are used in your argument for selecting a handgun cartridge, I'm likely done listening immediately.