40 better than 9 ?

[phylodog]

While some of this is true, a one item is bad and another is plain false. The bad item is regarding the fact that 9mm ammo is cheaper and has a lower recoil. Yes, there is value in practicing shooting lighter calibers to let you focus on trigger control and grip. But, once you've mastered those aspects of shooting, the more you shoot with ammo that's close to your carry ammo, the better you will be with your carry ammo. In a perfect world, once we have the fundamentals down, we would practice with carry ammo and if we had to use the gun in a self defense situation, we would perform better with more experience shooting our carry ammo.

The item that's wrong is highlighted above. Either calculate the wound volume using expansion and penetration values or, look at the FBI testing results for wound volume. There is a significant advantage in wound volume when shooting .40 S&W compared to the 9mm ammo. The best 9mm ammo comes in at a 4.9 cubic inch wound volume, with the least coming in around 1.9cu. Most fall around 4.0cu. Take a look at the .40 results and you'll see that the best comes in at 6.28 with the worst at 3.96 and an average somewhere around 4.8cu. The best .40 comes in around 29% more effective than the best 9mm.

Wound volume is what it's about. You can get impressive penetration with a .22lr and you can get huge expansion in rounds that don't penetrate, but wound volume tells you how much potential damage a bullet can produce as it moves through the body.

BTW, a good old 230g standard pressure Golden Saber produced an average of 7.89cu of wound volume.

How much wound volume does it take to stop someone? What is gained from additional would volume beyond that point and is it worth the potential costs of additional recoil and the effects it tends to have on accuracy and follow up shots? Handgun rounds suck at stopping people and more often than not more than one is needed. The time it takes to obtain additional hits matters, particularly when the other guy is using that time to send gifts your way.

I completely get what you're saying but no single aspect encompasses the answer to the question. People disagree on which aspects are the most important. For me, shot placement trumps everything by a wide margin provided a capable round is being utilized.

 

[fjw2]

I have both calibers in various guns. I like them all. The testing I have done myself over the years is what makes me say that the specific round(manufacturer,model,weight) tested in a specific gun is very important. I use Federal HST for carry. 147 9MM and 180 40 S&W. There are several detailed posts regarding energy and expansion on this thread. I don't own a 45, so I can't comment on the 45 HST. If I do purchase one in the future, it will be on my short list of rounds to test. I have done a fair bit of testing with 380 through a S&W Bodyguard. There are a couple of manufacturuers/loads that have yielded consistent results. Although I think 9MM is still my personal basement in terms of caliber to carry. There are some posts that give good advice on this topic. I will say that there is something to be said for coming to your own conclusions based on your own testing.

 

[88E30M50]

How much wound volume does it take to stop someone? What is gained from additional would volume beyond that point and is it worth the potential costs of additional recoil and the effects it tends to have on accuracy and follow up shots? Handgun rounds suck at stopping people and more often than not more than one is needed. The time it takes to obtain additional hits matters, particularly when the other guy is using that time to send gifts your way.

I completely get what you're saying but no single aspect encompasses the answer to the question. People disagree on which aspects are the most important. For me, shot placement trumps everything by a wide margin.

I agree on the shot placement. But, I also want to shoot the most effective round I can shoot well. What I see in wound volume is that it increases the potential of damage to be done. If a .40 slices an artery that a 9mm might only nick, that may mean the difference between my getting killed and getting home.

The key is to shoot what you shoot best. There's nothing wrong with the 3 big calibers. They each come at the solution from a slightly different direction, but what we choose is our choice to live with. I just tend to bristle at the notion that size is not a part of the equation. If that were the case, we'd all be sporting PMR 30s on our belt.

 

[phylodog]

I don't want to come off as being argumentative but a .40 slicing an artery that a 9mm only nicks goes to shot placement as much or more than size.

I'll admit my perspective is different than most as my decision isn't a personal one and has far reaching consequences. I gave up .08" of diameter but gained .42" of penetration and a significant reduction in recoil, additional capacity and improved accuracy. All things considered it was a no brainer.

 

[88E30M50]

I don't want to come off as being argumentative but a .40 slicing an artery that a 9mm only nicks goes to shot placement as much or more than size.

I'll admit my perspective is different than most as my decision isn't a personal one and has far reaching consequences. I gave up .08" of diameter but gained .42" of penetration and a significant reduction in recoil, additional capacity and improved accuracy. All things considered it was a no brainer.

Don't worry, I don't see this as much an argument as it is a discussion. I'm always on the hunt for perspectives other than my own. I have no problem admitting I was mistaken if someone can show me a perspective that makes more sense than my own. Threads like this are what makes INGO interesting.

 

[phylodog]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Bleeding out is great. It takes too long, though. Even a heart shot isn't enough to keep a determined shooter from getting rounds off and with effect. Fairly recently we had a mutual shooting where dying guy returned fire after being struck by multiple rifle rounds in his pelvis and lower torso and emptied his own handgun back at the other dude, hitting and critically injured the rifle shooter. I'm not counting on whatever difference in diameter between a 9mm and a .40, or for a .38 wadcutter, to work when the other would fail.

Practice your failure drill and getting off the X, no matter if you carry a .380 or a .44 magnum. That'll matter more and more often than any differences between the duty calibers.