A good 1911 is worth spending a couple a' grand

[halfmileharry]

Back to the OP...
I got hooked on the 1911s in the late 60s and immediately fell in love with the feel, power, and the .45acp cartridge.
I went from a well used military service 1911 to a '70 series GCNM and went through it with a fine tooth comb.
Vern Trester added a few touches to it and it was as good and reliable shooter as could ever be wanted.
I kept that gun and went to one of the first Kimber Customs that hit the Indy area.
I haven't looked back. I think I paid around $550 for it then.
I've owned 2 Wilsons, a Baer, and a couple of custom guns since. All nice guns but not a large step over the Kimbers at 2-4 times the $$.
I'm more than happy with the Kimbers at less than a grand each. Never an issue or glitch with them.
They're more accurate than I can shoot them and never a second thought about reliability from them.
I can see spending more but my requirements don't see the necessity.

 

[AverageMidwest]

How so? Are you implying other platforms don't? I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative. I'm honestly interested. I've always loved the 1911 and one day plan to add one to my collection.

The 1911 is a machine, plain and simple. In what way does it lend itself to modification, improvement, and individual design that any other handgun does not?

Think of it as the 57 Chevy of handguns. Yes, a machine - but it can be customized to the nth degree and (probably) has a greater variety of aftermarket parts available for it than are available for any other handgun. It can be tuned a lot of different ways, finished or refinished in a lot of different ways, etc etc etc....

Yes, there are modifications that can be made to Glocks, for example. But Glocks haven't had 90 years worth of Americans tinkering with them to figure out how they can be improved. It may be heresy to suggest it, but there are ways the original can be improved. (cough*bigger sights*cough)
Two cents worth for the day...

 

[AverageMidwest]

NO, never said that.

What I said, and to what I believe Woodrow is specifically referring, is that there is a whole class of guns above what is commonly referred to as a high end gun.

I never said what you imply.

Absolutely. There's low end - RIA, Taurus, Charles Daly - and they're fine for what you spend on them. There's medium, anywhere from say $750 to $1500, which I would guess includes the vast majority of 1911 models sold. Springfield, Kimber, SIG, Ruger, Remington, etc...and Colt, amazingly enough. Then you jump up to high end - Nighthawk, Wilson, Baer, etc.; $2000 to $3000 range. Very nice pieces.

Then you jump to the stratosphere - Cabot, Yost, Tussey, etc. Sky's the limit, anywhere from $3000 up. Super nice, super reliable, and in the case of a Terry Tussey original, for example, an outright work of visual art. But - it's still a machine for moving .45 ACP rounds downrange.

I'm down to one, my first, which is a Rock Island I've put maybe 500 into - better sights, throating, bigger safety, trigger job, etc. I could and should have spent more up front, but it's a learning process and now I'm looking for another in the medium range - which will probably be a Colt. Would I want to carry a Rock Island as a duty weapon? Probably not, but it's still fun to shoot and since I don't put 6000 rounds a year through it, it holds up well enough. (The SHTF night safe piece is a Smith and Wesson four inch .357 wheelgun. Go figure.) Do departments that allow/use a 1911 variant as a duty weapon need to buy Les Baer, for example? Probably not.

Hey, it's all good and they're all fun to shoot. Arguing over virtues and price is a waste of time. Spend whatever you can afford that makes you happy.

 

[AverageMidwest]

NO, never said that.

What I said, and to what I believe Woodrow is specifically referring, is that there is a whole class of guns above what is commonly referred to as a high end gun.

I never said what you imply.

Rereading, and you're righter yet. Nighthawk, Baer, etc, and for that matter Cabot, are production manufacturers. Very high end, very close tolerances, very good weapons, but still production manufacturers. They have a model list, they have a price list - you place an order and you get something from their list - they'd be willing to build a custom piece for the right price, but it's not really their business model. A custom piece built per someone's personal specifications by a highly skilled craftsman/artist is just that - a one-of-a-kind piece. You're going to pay for it accordingly because there are no economies of scale and the builder is charging for the decades of experience and knowledge he (or she) has gained. If the builder is actually re-engineering the gun like some of the innovators you mentioned, it's going to be more expensive yet - although hopefully he won't be doing trial and error at your expense.

However....at this point the 1911, and for that matter all metallic cartridge small arms, are pretty much mature technology - variations on a theme. How much real innovation remains to be done on the 1911 platform? I'm not being sarcastic, if there are engineers out there I'd like to hear from them.

 

[IndyGunworks]

I do not consider this thread a waste of time.

 

[woundedyak]

Nothing wrong with spending 1500+ on a firearm period. If you use it and appreciate. So be it. Same things goes with a camera or guitar. Now what get's me is, Someone who spends 5k on a time piece or 1500 on a pair of shoes becuase they think it adds a few inches.

 

[Woodrow]

I have been too long away, and really do feel the need to clarify a few issues here. Nighthawk, Wilson, Les Baer, et al. make tremendous firearms. I was looking at Les Baer for a matching set for me and the wife (we finally settled on Fusion to really make them personalized), I like my Kimbers, I like my Springfield WW2 (which will soon be off to John Harrison), but after having relatively recently started studying the heritage of today's 1911s, I have found that I want pistols that were made one at a time by masters who have dedicated themselves to building these pistols.

I never said that my personal needs require a $3000-$5000 custom, but if a master craftsman, who has spent years studying under previous master craftsman designs and builds a pistol, should he not be paid for his expertise? I am not paying for it to be a one of a kind--the very nature of the master gunsmith ensures that it will be--I am paying for master work and flawless execution.

 

[Woodrow]

When one looks at today's guns, and examines where the machining and designs came from, the 1911s of yesterday's gunsmiths become all the more interesting. Les Baer attributes all of his skill to Bob Day, while Wayne Novak "(and many others) studied under Armand Swenson, and then later went on to work for Charlie Kelsey of Devel. I think that it is worth paying for the vintage work of yesterday's master craftsman and innovators.

Austin Behlert, Sid Woodcock, and Armand Swenson all realized about the same time the importance of a small 1911 for self-defense. Their executions were completely different, and that pre-CNC innovation fascinates me. Likewise, today's private gunsmiths perform complex machining and build upon what has already been in order to create works of art. It takes hours to complete the finished product, but the resulting pistols really are works of art, meant to be fired every day.

 

[Woodrow]

If you want an RIA, great. It is a 1911 that will run and run, and very few people will ever shoot a gun until it falls apart. I want more that just a 1911. I want the labor and innovation of a full custom gun. I want the hours spent in design, and the late nights, and the flawless execution.

Want an example? Google Ned Christiansen and look at his "stippling." Nothing like it has been done on a 1911. It takes time, and it is worth the price, if one is interested in pistols as art. I am.

 

[J_Wales]

It would be fun to match a top shelf 1911 against a bottom of the barrel 1911.

 

[Woodrow]

By "match," I assume you mean some kind of shooting test. Accuracy? Reliability? What kind of event? Do you mean put them in a crusher and see which withstands higher psi?

Do you mean match gaps in them by measuring points where pieces go together? Counting machining marks? Put them up against each other in auction?

Realistically, I am guessing you mean some kind of accuracy competition. Accuracy and function are extremely important to me. Reliability is a must in a custom piece. As to standing and shooting holes, most guns are better than most shooters.

As to match on the overall look, feel, fit, and finish of the pistol, there really is no comparison. To those who have held a full custom, who have seen what happens when one skilled master produces one pistol at a time, there can be no comparison.

 

[dtkw]

With all my 1911 that I had, I traded them all except the Baer one that I would never sell or trade. It worth the $1500 that I paid in the 80's and it has never fail in any parts like my Gold Cup which the front sight kept breaking time after time. The baer still shoot great and very accurate.

 

[gajones06]

I have owned a handful of 1911's and shot a ton of them but my favorite is an RIA. It might be becuase it my was first but whenever I want to go out an shoot I always bring it along. I have sold it a few times and always end up buying it back. I still enjoy shooting my colt and kimber but i really love shooting the RIA. It sounds goofy as hell and I catch a lot of crap from my friends. Also I think I have put more money in ed brown parts then what I bought it for originally...

 

[J_Wales]

By "match," I assume you mean some kind of shooting test. Accuracy? Reliability? What kind of event? Do you mean put them in a crusher and see which withstands higher psi?

Do you mean match gaps in them by measuring points where pieces go together? Counting machining marks? Put them up against each other in auction?

Realistically, I am guessing you mean some kind of accuracy competition. Accuracy and function are extremely important to me. Reliability is a must in a custom piece. As to standing and shooting holes, most guns are better than most shooters.

As to match on the overall look, feel, fit, and finish of the pistol, there really is no comparison. To those who have held a full custom, who have seen what happens when one skilled master produces one pistol at a time, there can be no comparison.

Well done!

I mean using a pistol for what it is. It is a tool... like a fork, a knife, a spoon, a hammer, a screwdriver. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Woodrow]

Well done!

I mean using a pistol for what it is. It is a tool... like a fork, a knife, a spoon, a hammer, a screwdriver. Nothing more, nothing less.

And a car is a conveyance, nothing more, nothing less?

A pistol is more than a tool. Don't agree? Do you buy nails to practice hammering? Do you take classes on using a spoon to hone your technique? If your screwdriver breaks, do you take it to a machine shop to fix it, or do you just go buy another?

A pistol has a significant meaning. I treat my pistols with greater reverence than my tools. I take care of my things, but i want more in a pistol than pull trigger, go boom.

I guess that's the crux of my point: aesthetics are important to me, heretic that I am. I have a couple pistols that are less than attractive, and they work fine, but a true custom pistol, manufactured by someone who has dedicated their life to perfecting one single machine, is a great deal more than a simple tool.

 

[melensdad]

Well done!

I mean using a pistol for what it is. It is a tool... like a fork, a knife, a spoon, a hammer, a screwdriver. Nothing more, nothing less.

But going back to Belhert and Woodcock and Swensen, they actually took 1911 frames and cut them apart and rewelded them into slightly different configurations, they cut the slides, sectioning out the middle and rewelding the two ends together. They developed whole new patents on how to make a bushing work, or to eliminate a bushing.

I'd challenge you to show how RIA (or Colt, or Kimber, or Springfield) could have built a compact pistol at all had it not been for the above 3 gentlemen since all the modern guns use the patents developed by these gentlemen. That said, a compact Colt (etc) is nothing more than a copy of one of their guns.

 

[ghitch75]

3k Wilson is a different bread than even a 1500 Colt GCNM.....it's the fit of parts that make the 3k Wilson run like ever part in it is on ball bearings.....i have 15 different 1911's which 2 of them i built and my Wilson CQB is the best of all of them.....if you have run one you can feel and see the difference.....i grew up shootin' a GCNM which was my dads and me in the last 25 years messin' with them off and on a 3k+ 1911 is like a Yugo to a Lamborghini....with anything in life you get what you pay for...