A good 1911 is worth spending a couple a' grand

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  • Woodrow

    Sharpshooter
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    May 30, 2010
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    How so? Are you implying other platforms don't? I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative. I'm honestly interested. I've always loved the 1911 and one day plan to add one to my collection.

    The 1911 is a machine, plain and simple. In what way does it lend itself to modification, improvement, and individual design that any other handgun does not?

    The 1911 was designed to function in almost any environment. It was solely for the battlfield. In assuring it would always perform, Browning designed it to be loose, so as to prevent jamming from debris. It is also very easy to work on to allow field maintenance, has many modular parts to allow replacement of components rather than the whole, and was originally made from heavy steel. After WW2 GIs were bored, and knew how to shoot, but accuracy was limited from a loose pistol. Gunsmiths (read: machinists) discovered that tightening frame to slide fit made the pistol accurate, but less than reliable--not an issue with bullseye competition. When Jeff Cooper began demonstrating importance of pistol in civilian world, Frank Pachmayr, Austin Behlert, Armand Swenson, and othets found that through careful machining, extant parts could be smoothed to reduce resistance, slick up function, and therefore make the gun reliable. The loose, heavy guage, modular 1911 could be tightened, cut and ground, and have new parts manugactured and added to old frames, to begin to make the mastetpieces we have today.

    Think about it like this: frames and slides have changed shape very little since 1911. How many machines at the height of their popularity today can say the same?
     

    Colt556

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    A lot of good points made in ths thread. I've loved the 1911 as long as I can remember. Whenever I go into a shop and see one on the shelf my heart rate and respiration increases just a bit. I've owned all sorts of 1911s including high end Colts, Kimbers, a Fusion and a Les Baer. I've also had a few Springers Llamas and a Taurus.I also own a couple USGI 1911s. I can tell the difference between the Colts and Kimbers from the others just by holding them in my hand. Sure the others worked ok but they just didn't have that "Feel" that a quality 1911 gives you. I've had a lot of custom work done on 1911s as well and that also makes a difference in the feel and function of a quality gun. You can probably do more to a 1911 than any other pistol platform out there and personalize it your exact wants and needs. But having said that I also believe in the Law of Diminishing Return. I think you can build a gun to a certain point and anything after that is just extra fluff. There are plenty of 1911s in the $1000-1500 range that will do everything asked of a 1911, do it well and last a lifetime. When you get above $2000 I think you are paying for unneeded labor and expense. But I don't condemn anyone for wanting a $400 RIA or a $3500 Wilson 1911. To each their own. Just keep em shootin! :twocents: :yesway:
     

    Floater

    Plinker
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    Mar 8, 2012
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    Woodrow said:
    Gunsmiths (read: machinists) discovered that tightening frame to slide fit made the pistol accurate, but less than reliable--not an issue with bullseye competition. When Jeff Cooper began demonstrating importance of pistol in civilian world, Frank Pachmayr, Austin Behlert, Armand Swenson, and othets found that through careful machining, extant parts could be smoothed to reduce resistance, slick up function, and therefore make the gun reliable. The loose, heavy guage, modular 1911 could be tightened, cut and ground, and have new parts manugactured and added to old frames, to begin to make the mastetpieces we have today.

    Woodrow said:
    Think about it like this: frames and slides have changed shape very little since 1911. How many machines at the height of their popularity today can say the same?

    These seem contradictory to me. Either they've changed (tightening frame to slide fit, tightened, cut and ground, have new parts manufactured and added to old frames) or they haven't.

    That's like saying very little has changed since the introduction of the Model T in 1908 to the 2013 Mustang. Sure, new parts have been manufactured and added, tolerances have been tightened, etc, but it's still a chasis with four wheels.
     

    Floater

    Plinker
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    Mar 8, 2012
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    A Mosin Nagant always functions, a Mosin Nagant is not "quality."

    I supposed that depends on one's definition of quality. In my experience, they are reliable and accurate. I'd say they're as reliable and accurate as a 1903 Springfield. (I don't know for certain as I've never owned an 03 Springfield) Neither falls apart in your hands and both are rugged and reliable. Both would be quality rifles in my opinion. Consider the Arisaka, especially the late war examples. Poor function, unreliable, not exactly accurate, not a quality rifle.

    If quality is defined by appearances only, I have a '58 Edsel with a 100% pristine body. It looks beautiful. It must be a quality automobile. (No, I don't really have a '58 Edsel.)
     

    Woodrow

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    These seem contradictory to me. Either they've changed (tightening frame to slide fit, tightened, cut and ground, have new parts manufactured and added to old frames) or they haven't.

    That's like saying very little has changed since the introduction of the Model T in 1908 to the 2013 Mustang. Sure, new parts have been manufactured and added, tolerances have been tightened, etc, but it's still a chasis with four wheels.

    The point is that the design allows it to me manipulated for function. The appearance has changed very little millimeters of tolerance and some soldering and grinding. Do you really look at a Model T and a new Mustang and only see minor aesthetic differences on chasis and wheels? Really?

    I am typing on a phone and was attempting to break down my affinity for the pistol as simply as possible. If I am less than eloquent, it is the manner of my typing. I dig tjese guns, you asked for explanation, I gave it. I'm not trying to convinve anyone.
     

    Floater

    Plinker
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    Woodrow said:
    Do you really look at a Model T and a new Mustang and only see minor aesthetic differences on chasis and wheels? Really?
    No, it was hyperbole. Maybe a bad example of hyperbole as well.
    Woodrow said:
    The point is that the design allows it to me manipulated for function.
    And my contention is that any mechanical design can be manipulated for function.
    Woodrow said:
    I dig tjese guns, you asked for explanation, I gave it. I'm not trying to convinve anyone.
    I apologize if I've come off as capricious and argumentative. That was certainly not my intention. I dig the 1911 also. Having never owned one or even handled one, except for my dads USGI circa 1917, I honestly don't understand why they can be had for ~$500 to $5,000 and up. If the one for $500 functions as flawlessly as one for $2,500, then to me the quality is the same. Maybe it's one of those things that I just can't understand until I've owned, or at least shot, several of the variations.
     

    xdmstu

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    Mar 6, 2010
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    Don't always mistake PRICE for QUALITY.

    Don't end up as one of those people who brags about an expensive gun one month, and is selling it to pay a bill the next.

    Oh, and if you really want what Browning would likely call "his best"... check out CZ instead. :D
     

    melensdad

    Grandmaster
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    Apr 2, 2008
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    Don't always mistake PRICE for QUALITY.

    Don't end up as one of those people who brags about an expensive gun one month, and is selling it to pay a bill the next.

    Oh, and if you really want what Browning would likely call "his best"... check out CZ instead. :D

    I think you have missed the whole point of this thread. Most of what is being referred to are custom guns or semi-custom production guns. The brands to which he has referred at at the top of the game, or who have literally reinvented the guns using JM Browning's concept as their base. The names that he banters about are legends that go back to the 1960's and 70's. He left out a few, but got many of them in this thread. Without some of those folks the shooting sports would likely be very different today.
     

    xdmstu

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    I think you have missed the whole point of this thread. Most of what is being referred to are custom guns or semi-custom production guns. The brands to which he has referred at at the top of the game, or who have literally reinvented the guns using JM Browning's concept as their base. The names that he banters about are legends that go back to the 1960's and 70's. He left out a few, but got many of them in this thread. Without some of those folks the shooting sports would likely be very different today.

    Agreed, I skipped after the first two pages... apologies for that. Lesson learned. :n00b:

    I do agree with buying quality in general. Though I'm not a custom person...yet.
     

    melensdad

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    Agreed, I skipped after the first two pages... apologies for that. Lesson learned. :n00b:

    I do agree with buying quality in general. Though I'm not a custom person...yet.
    As far as the CZ goes, I do think that Browning would appreciate it. I've got a bunch of the 75 models in various configurations. Awesome guns. That said, a well tuned 1911 is a totally different type of machine. A reengineered 1911, with a reversed cone bull barrel, captured recoil assembly and tuned trigger is a marvel that few guns can even aspire to matching. Getting those features (and many more subtle ones) in a semi-custom or custom piece, finely assembled by a trained gunsmith (not an assembly line) makes for something truly special.
     

    60Driver

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    Sep 9, 2010
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    Very good discussion and many points I agree with. Couple of observations from a guy who has tinkered with and shot the platform a "little" over the years.

    The original JMB design was not "loose", a common myth logically brought about by the fitment of wartime GI 1911s. They were designed with looser tolerances to facilitate parts interchangability, ease of maintenance, and were used to the point that they became loose. Some good testing also has shown that depending on the environment a correctly fitted "tight" 1911 is MORE reliable.

    I would contend that you do get what you pay for, yes at some point it becomes decorative or "overkill". That said a true full house gun by a great smith has a feel to it compared to even a great semi-custom that is intangible. Additionaly a 1911 built by a master is typically EXACTLY what the buyer wants, one of a kind, a functional work of art.

    I am certainly not good enough to "shoot" the difference between a Heirloom Precision, Rogers, Swenson (Fill in your favorite LTW smith) 1911 and a quality Semi-custom or high end production gun but even my meager abilities can feel the diference in the action, trigger etc.

    There are some GREAT "production" and semi custom 1911's out there right now. All would serve their owner well and are worthy to be carried in harms way, but even their manufacturers would have to admit that a master smith could hand fit the platform to achieve even better results in terms of accuracy, functionality and reliability.

    All 1911s are machines and machines can fail. The reason high end guns are sought after is the effort and quality of parts to reduce this chance. For a new 1911 shooter, buy a quality base gun, learn the platform, save and have quality mods done to it by a good smith that make it better for your needs...carry, bullseye, heck pimped out BBQ gun :):

    I am really looking forward to seeing what the OP ends up obtaining or having built, enjoy the process!
     

    xdmstu

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    As far as the CZ goes, I do think that Browning would appreciate it. I've got a bunch of the 75 models in various configurations. Awesome guns. That said, a well tuned 1911 is a totally different type of machine. A reengineered 1911, with a reversed cone bull barrel, captured recoil assembly and tuned trigger is a marvel that few guns can even aspire to matching. Getting those features (and many more subtle ones) in a semi-custom or custom piece, finely assembled by a trained gunsmith (not an assembly line) makes for something truly special.



    I hope to get a chance someday to fire such a truly crafted gun. Until then... I'm trying to keep my habit under control and you're all not helping! :D
     

    Woodrow

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    No, it was hyperbole. Maybe a bad example of hyperbole as well.

    And my contention is that any mechanical design can be manipulated for function.

    I apologize if I've come off as capricious and argumentative. That was certainly not my intention. I dig the 1911 also. Having never owned one or even handled one, except for my dads USGI circa 1917, I honestly don't understand why they can be had for ~$500 to $5,000 and up. If the one for $500 functions as flawlessly as one for $2,500, then to me the quality is the same. Maybe it's one of those things that I just can't understand until I've owned, or at least shot, several of the variations.

    Hyperbole...good on you. Good for casting out literary devices superfluously during discussion. Personally, when I ask a general question after professing to be less than competent on a given subject, I certainly don't attempt to critique the exposition.

    If I paint my bedroom wall, which is roughly the same size as Guernica. Both are covered with decent paint--I would argue that my newer, blended with various polymers, is better quality than his old oil base. Both paint jobs serve adequately to cover their respective surfaces. Is the quality of my paint job equal to that of Guernica? Should mine then cost the same?

    Anyway, I recommend to all, Marianne Carniak...female gunsmith in Michigan. Incredible work. Call it empowerment or whatever, but wife already contacted her about waiting list.
     
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    Woodrow

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    As far as the CZ goes, I do think that Browning would appreciate it. I've got a bunch of the 75 models in various configurations. Awesome guns. That said, a well tuned 1911 is a totally different type of machine. A reengineered 1911, with a reversed cone bull barrel, captured recoil assembly and tuned trigger is a marvel that few guns can even aspire to matching. Getting those features (and many more subtle ones) in a semi-custom or custom piece, finely assembled by a trained gunsmith (not an assembly line) makes for something truly special.

    The CZ is probably the most ergodynamically perfect handgun on earth. I have never held a pistol that felt better.

    And melensdad is right. I do ramble on about names of old smiths here recently. I have been languishing alone in my rare off time because for 2 months, we have been short-staffed, and filling in for vacations. I have not sat with a cigar and talked to real people about guns in forever, so come on here and yammer on and on.

    Melensdad has taught me a great deal about the design and specifications of different 1911s. Hell, gun manufacturers call him for tips. Per usual, I defer to his expertise.

    You are going tomorrow, right?
     

    Floater

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    You don't attempt to verify the veracity of the answer you sought? You've yet to explain why an expensive "quality" 1911 is better than a cheaper model. All you've said is that the platform lends itself to modification. I beg your pardon for not accepting your exposition at face value.

    Did you hear that lifetime LTCHs are being eliminated? Would you like to verify that or just take my word?

    With that I will, perhaps not so gracefully, bow out of this discussion.
     

    rlidgard

    Marksman
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    Apr 14, 2011
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    ive been saving for my nighthawk. and i know excactly what u mean. i like my kimbers. but ive wanted a nighthawk for a longtime now. and this year should be the year.
     
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