A good 1911 is worth spending a couple a' grand

[melensdad]

. . . I honestly don't understand why they can be had for ~$500 to $5,000 and up. If the one for $500 functions as flawlessly as one for $2,500, then to me the quality is the same. . .

So in your book if a car can go the maximum speed limit then its quality is the same as another car that can do the same?

A 1974 Chevy Vega hatchback can cruise at 65 mph. So can a Chevy Corvette. The quality must be the same? Both can do what the government sets as the maximum legal speed, so the objective is achieved.
​

The guns to which Woodrow refers are only similar to a basic 1911 in that they have a similarly functioning system and similar parts, but many of those parts have been cut and reshaped, frames bobbed, flared, reconfigured with finger grooves, cut out to allow higher grip to bore axis alignment, and otherwise rebuilt in such a way that the size and shape of the original gun is often altered to a point that the basic gun is barely recognizable. The magazines have been built by hand, the frame angles changed, the grips hand fitted and shaped to accommodate the newly shaped frames . . .

Folks here are thinking of Nighthawk or STI/SVI or Baer or Wilson but those are not true custom guns, those are nothing more than limited production guns that are super slicked up Government models built to order.

Chow, Swensen, Woodcock, Belhert, and others were true innovators and simultaneously were also genius engineers and superb craftsmen. These folks built 1-off true custom pieces where each was unique and individual. Not trying to sound snooty, but I honestly don't think that most of the people who replied to this thread understand anything about the true custom gun market to which Woodrow is referring.

Nighthawk or Baer may build 50 identical guns in a year, Belhert might built 150 guns in a lifetime and only a few would even have interchangeable parts.

 

[Grelber]

A 1974 Chevy Vega hatchback can cruise at 65 mph. So can a Chevy Corvette. The quality must be the same?​

That is kind of the root of any disagreement in this thread I think. The cvets are cool but for real life the vega hauls a bigger payload rides a lot smoother burns less gas doesn't drag its bottom on a gravel road isn't too low for the semi to see in its rear view mirror and etc. The Vega is a higher quality car if you equate quality to useable function.

If your value system is based around the cool factor that is 100% aok, if your value system is tied more to function that is aok too.

If your wallet is big enough you've probably got something practical that you use and aren't afraid to put wear on and you've probably got something else that lives in the gun case (or garage) and mainly just gets looked at.

In my opinion.​

 

[slyton]

Being a out of the bracket of being able to shoot a custom 1911 I feel limited on what to put it. (only shot ria1911 and a orginal colt 1911 from WWI) This is what i am thinking.

If we use the same prints for the gun. The gun will in theory be the same. In reality no. So we come to tolerances. The closer we keep the tolerance to nonimal the closer it will be to the print, hence a better quality gun. Now we come into the dreaded stacking of tolerances, each part has a tolerance then the tolerance of the overall machine(read gun). So we can be pushing tolerance + on one part and - on another and still be close to nonimal on the overall. Is this a quality gun? Your call, will it work? Yes

But if everything is nonimal, it will be a quality gun per the print. So better machine, material, and ability to write off scrap and more time, will result in a better quality gun, thus more overhead more cost driving up the cost.

Will a better quality, feel better and be worth the money? That is up the person to deciede.

 

[IndyGunworks]

To me the 1911 is all about DIY. for around 600 dollas in tooling, and 1500 in parts, one can build a 1911 that is a one off, done just for you, by you, using nothing but top quality parts.

Stay tuned for my 1911 thread, i just finished building one.

 

[88E30M50]

A Mosin Nagant always functions, a Mosin Nagant is not "quality."

You need to read Pirsig's 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'. He makes a good case for the Mosin being among the highest in quality. By his definitition, which I tend to agree with, my Walther PPK/S is very low quality compared to my Bersa 380CC. He holds that quality is the sense of peace, satisfaction and contentment that an object gives to the person using it. When I shoot my PPK, I am frustrated that it does not live up to the beautiful machine work done on it.

The automobile analogy is a good one. When you compare a Kia to a BMW, you see differences. Both are quality vehicles in that they give a level of satisfaction to the users but they do it in different ways. The Kia is a good car that provides an acceptable level of service and reliabilty. But, if you put a Kia (or almost any other Asian car) on a lift next to a BMW, you see huge differences. The BMW makes a lot of use of aluminum castings where as teh Kia uses steel stampings. The aluminum castings tend to be stiffer and lighter which affects the feel of driving. Look at the engines and you see a magnesium block with aluminum liners on the BMW and a cast steel or aluminum block on the Kia. The result is that for someone that values the quality of the drive, the BMW is a very high quality vehicle. For someone that is indifferent to the subtleties of the driving experience, the technology in the BMW is lost on them and not a quality vehicle to them.

1911s are no different. If a person can feel the difference, the Nighthawk is worth every penny. For someone like me, I am more than happy with a Kimber or Sig. Still, others see no value in the additional money spent on those over and above an RIA. If you don't see the quality, it's not there for you. If you do, you have a hard time accepting something that does not have it. One day, I'll probably buy a quality 1911 and will never look at my Kimbers the same way again. But, then again, I own an RIA and think there's a great deal of quality in that due to the satisfaction it gives when I shoot it.

 

[melensdad]

Again, and no disrespect implied to anyone, but if you think that Woodrow was talking about "build it yourself" on-off pistols, or even semi-production guns like Nighthawks and Les Baers then you have completely missed the point of the thread.

Here is a photo of an Austin Behlert custom gun. You can see this is not what most people think is a 'custom' gun based on this thread.

This gun started as a full size Browning HP, Behlert cut the frame down, welded on the finger groove, welded on a front of trigger guard groove, hand built a magazine to fit, cut the slide, cut the dust cover, totally re-engineered the recoil system, recontoured the slide, welded in a custom front sight that he designed, made custom grigs, inset a S&W revolver rear sight into the top of the slide by cutting in a groove, changed the contour of the beavertail, refinished the frame and probably did a few dozen other things of which we are unaware. This is a 'chopped and channeled' gun and a fine example of such a piece. Only the best of the very best can even attempt this level of custom work and most of those fail.

He did this 30 odd years ago when Browning was not making compact pistols. In fact he did this when only a handful of folks were making compact guns. Belhert was a master engineer because the only way to make a compact gun was to totally reengineer the gun.

There is no way to compare what Les Baer, or Nighthawk, or Wilson Combat "assemble" out of parts to a gun like this one.

 

[IndyGunworks]

Again, and no disrespect implied to anyone, but if you think that Woodrow was talking about "build it yourself" on-off pistols, or even semi-production guns like Nighthawks and Les Baers then you have completely missed the point of the thread.

The point of this thread? See below, its the original post of the thread and i think that establishes what the "point" of the thread is.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with spending $2000+ on a good 1911...

Alright, so I admit it, I am addicted to Mr. Browning's best. I lie awake at night figuring on how to get more, and as soon as I get one, I am immediately thinking about the next...

I don't have as many as most, but I am coming to realize something...I can't get by on cheap stuff. I need either vintage, or quality. Don't get me wrong, I really don't really want to get into a MIM or casting and forging, or what have you type of argument. I just want to spend my money and time on something with blended lines, inventive (and artistic!) machining, history, and flawless, graceful performance. I can buy a Kia that runs, but I want a Lexus that drives. Shooting is more to me than pull trigger go bang, and droo its don't cut it for me.

Sure, I sound like a snob, but to rach his own, and it is worth it to me.

Thoughts...?

Seems to me that me building my own exactly how i want it, out of the highest of quality parts, assuring the tightest fit possible w/ 100 percent reliability and excellent accuracy and as fancy as i want it, most definatly fits the "point" of this thread.


No disrespect felt, but it does seem to me that you wouldnt consider it a higher end custom, just because it was a DIY and didnt involve extensive super secret tricks to modify something significantly past its original designed purpose. I have about 50 hours into my 1911 and ever single part have love put into it. its 1500 in parts and LOTS of labor, and i would put it alongside of any of the other customs out there. Sure its not worth 5,000 but are the others? I bet it shoots right alongside them, is just as reliable, and really is custom because it was built using each of my favorite aspects of a 1911.

So to me "custom" is the labor of love that goes into an idea, put onto paper, and turned into something real.

 

[nimrodder]

Bought a Wilson 15 years ago and have never regretted it for a second.

 

[NHT3]

To me the 1911 is all about DIY. for around 600 dollas in tooling, and 1500 in parts, one can build a 1911 that is a one off, done just for you, by you, using nothing but top quality parts.

Stay tuned for my 1911 thread, i just finished building one.

I thought about doing just as you suggest and it wasn't going to cost quite that much but I came to the conclusion that I could buy a used Wilson for 2K and it would probably be worth that when I sold it and if I spend 1500 and my time to build when I finish I would be lucky to get 1K for my 1500 investment plus my effort. For me it just wasn't worth a loss of my time and at least $500 to say "I did it myself". I would rather spend the $500 on ammo and the "time" invested shooting the Wilson. I can only speak for myself and I'm confident I could build a 1911 from parts, but to think I can turn out the same quality piece as a craftsman that's been building pistols every day for years would be giving myself way too much credit.
To the original question, I do think they are worth it and if possible like to support real American craftsmen when possible. I have found Wilson and Nighthawk pistols to be second to none in quality and when handled and shot see a marked difference in them and, to give an example, a Kimber. Nothing against a pistol that is finished on a CNC machine because they are quality guns but a pistol that's hand fitted and built by a human being has just a little different feel to it.
Bottom line is that at this point in my life I've been fortunate enough, and blessed enough to be able to afford a couple of those pistols and I really appreciate the workmanship I see in them.
[FONT=&quot]NRA Life member [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gunsite graduate Certified Glock armorer[/FONT]

 

[melensdad]

The point of this thread? See below, its the original post of the thread and i think that establishes what the "point" of the thread is.

. . .. I just want to spend my money and time on something with blended lines, inventive (and artistic!) machining, history, and flawless, graceful performance. . .

I stand by what I have written. Thank you for proving my point.

DIY, Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk all may be fine guns. They have nothing inventive about them. They have no history that they didn't inherit from JMBrowning. Want inventive, go back and look at Sid Woodcock's work, what he did in the 70's is now used by virtually every 1911 maker today for their compact guns and by many for their premium target grade guns. He reengineered the 1911. Swensen did the same but did it differently. Bob Chow did the same in yet another way.

Not saying that these other guns by Nighthawk, Les Baer, and Wilson Combat are not superb 1911s but they have innovated and invented nothing new.

 

[Sailor]

I recently came into a 1943 Colt 1911a1. Not a 1911 guy but I can appreciate the engineering and history. No idea what its value.

 

[melensdad]

I recently came into a 1943 Colt 1911a1. Not a 1911 guy but I can appreciate the engineering and history. No idea what its value.

An old Colt was actually an engineering marvel in its day. They were also much more artistic than the so-called custom guns we see today. Take a look at the shape of the hammer of an old Colt, there is a huge amount of work that went into the rounding, shaping and checkering of that small part. Its not punched out of a hunk of steel like most today, or cut out by an automated CNC machine.

Todays guns are often made on hulking CNC machines that churn out exact copies, one after another. Your old Colt was a true hand built gun.

Doug Turnbull is probably one of the few custom gun crafters around now. Most everyone else is operating a glorified machine shop churning out a modest number of high quality clones and calling them custom pistols.

 

[KoopaKGB]

I cant tell the difference between a $900 1911 vs a $2500, but I'm certainly not a 1911 guy. I shot a Kimber and thought that was great, theres no way I could justify spending anything higher then that.

 

[IndyGunworks]

So it has to be innovative in order to be high quality customs? I guess we are just seeing it from different sides of the fence, but i respect your opinion.

For me though, a 2000 dollar 1911, is going to be built by me, and i would be more than happy to let you shoot my builds right along side of the rest of them.

 

[melensdad]

So it has to be innovative in order to be high quality customs?

Nope, but look at what Woodrow wrote. He is looking for a combination of things. He also wants history. Woodrow is looking for the "whole package" and that is why he has mentioned the names of several prominent gun crafters who apparently have been forgotten by too many folks around here. These were folks who helped shape the industry we have today, folks who's ideas were copied, folks who quite literally reengineered the guns operating systems, who cut the frames apart and changed the grip angle to reduce recoil by aligning the gun to your arm instead of directing the recoil over your bent wrist...

What is historic about a Nighthawk Custom? What is innovative about a Wilson Combat. I will grant you that both are finely finished.

I'd actually argue that there is more historic and innovative in an SVI double-stack or a Para USA double-stack and/or LDA than there is in a Les Baer because SVI and Para have forever changed the way people look at the 1911 and have made new inroads into the continuation of the development of the platform that had not been seen before by taking the gun apart and redesigning it. That said, I'm not putting SVI or Para into the elite group to which Woodrow seems to refer.

 

[NHT3]

After having been to Nighthawk and watching them build pistols I can tell you that it's anything but a "glorified machine shop". Frames and slides are roughed on a CNC machine to the point that they can be "driven" together with a soft hammer at the start of the process. Every part in their pistols are fitted and finished with a file, dremel tool and emery cloth. They may not be the craftsman that Doug Turnbull is but they are skilled craftsmen just the same and know their business very well. I didn't go to Wilson's shop while I was in Berryville but I can see the same craftsmanship in the pistols coming from Wilson's shop. If what they were doing was easy there would be more people in the business and Wilson and Nighthawk wouldn't be backed up 8-12 months on orders. They are doing something right and their quality, even at the prices they charge, is appreciated by enough people around the world to keep them covered up with work.
[FONT=&quot]NRA Life member [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gunsite graduate Certified Glock armorer[/FONT]

 

[IndyGunworks]

Fair enough, i guess i didnt take the concept of the thread to be as literal as you did. I was just thinking "high end custum 1911" in which my builds ARE. innovative they are not.

so i guess a DIY cannot apply here since it does not meet that one criteria of innovative, unless you got mad skills.

 

[melensdad]

After having been to Nighthawk and watching them build pistols I can tell you that it's anything but a "glorified machine shop". Frames and slides are roughed on a CNC machine to the point that they can be "driven" together with a soft hammer at the start of the process. Every part in their pistols are fitted and finished with a file, dremel tool and emery cloth. They may not be the craftsman. . .

And there you go. They make a fine gun. I am not saying they don't. As a base 1911 they make a superb example that is beautifully finished.

But what innovation have they brought to the market?

And what new design feature is being copied by the industry?

So when you admit that they are not the craftsman of (insert name here) then you admit that they are, in fact, a glorified clone maker with fancy machines and a nice finish.

Again, I am not trying to belittle any of these very fine guns or gun makers, but I honestly think that Woodrow is referring to a whole different class of gun.

so i guess a DIY cannot apply here since it does not meet that one criteria of innovative, unless you got mad skills.

I think it is those exact MAD SKILLS that set Woodcock and Chow and Behlert and others apart.

 

[IndyGunworks]

So it cannot be considered a high end custom gun, unless its something new?

 

[melensdad]

So it cannot be considered a high end custom gun, unless its something new?

NO, never said that.

What I said, and to what I believe Woodrow is specifically referring, is that there is a whole class of guns above what is commonly referred to as a high end gun.

I never said what you imply.