Bank Carrying

[Ness2k]

I've OC'd at the Valparaiso and Lowell post offices many times. I once made small talk with a state police who was in the Valpo branch, and nothing was brought up about my weapon.

I carry to my bank (Wells Fargo) in Union Mills once a month, no problems there either.

 

[Alerion]

As far as federal buildings go, Indiana law probably doesn't mention it in order to avoid any conflict with the federal law.

Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities


[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](c) A person who kills or attempts to kill any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, and 1113.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law;or[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](e) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph(1) or (2) of subsection (d).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](g) As used in this section:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](2) The term "dangerous weapon" means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](3) The term "Federal court facility" means the courtroom, judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection(a) or (e), as the case may be.[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[JosephR]

OK so post offices are not listed and since almost all do not have the correct legal signage then case closed...

 

[MontereyC6]

As far as federal buildings go, Indiana law probably doesn't mention it in order to avoid any conflict with the federal law.

Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities


[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](c) A person who kills or attempts to kill any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, and 1113.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law;or[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](e) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph(1) or (2) of subsection (d).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](g) As used in this section:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](2) The term "dangerous weapon" means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](3) The term "Federal court facility" means the courtroom, judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1](h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection(a) or (e), as the case may be.[/SIZE][/FONT]

What am I missing here?

 

[JosephR]

It says you will be fined in subsection (a) and then (d)(3) says that does not apply if you are carrying lawfully.

 

[eldirector]

Been doing my own research on the whole Post Office thing, and found some info:

First, the Post Offices are most definitely Federal Gov. buildings - Link

They actually lease most of their buildings, but as Alerion just posted, even leased buildings (provided federal employees work there) are off limits.

However, as JosephR just pointed out, I have never seen any signage at a Post Office. See subsection 'h' at the very end of the code.

BTW: I also found the legal definition of Actual Notice:

actual notice
n. having been informed directly of something or having seen it occur, as distinguished from constructive notice (e.g. a notice was mailed but not received, published in a newspaper, or placed in official records).

So....... Looks like firearms are expressly forbidden in the Post Office but it MUST be posted at each public entrance, or you must told directly, for it to be enforced.

You go first!

Sorry for the

 

[eldirector]

It says you will be fined in subsection (a) and then (d)(3) says that does not apply if you are carrying lawfully.

Totally missed that..... And I like that answer better!

 

[MontereyC6]

It says you will be fined in subsection (a) and then (d)(3) says that does not apply if you are carrying lawfully.

Yup, the first thing in (a) goes right to (d) and there in (3) it says we are fine. Oh well, what do I know.

 

[JosephR]

Thank you but I don't think that means that it is a federal entity or the workers are federal workers. From what I've read, it's a private company that has the backing of the government.

Then there's the sign thing...

 

[eldirector]

Thank you but I don't think that means that it is a federal entity or the workers are federal workers. From what I've read, it's a private company that has the backing of the government.

TITLE 39 > PART I > CHAPTER 2 > § 201

There is established, as an independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States, the United States Postal Service.



From:
US CODE: Title 39,201. United States Postal Service

I'm pretty sure that TITLE 39 > PART II > CHAPTER 10 > § 1005 indicates that Postal Employees are Federal Employees.

Are there any INGO members that work for the Postal Service?

 

[JosephR]

"The United States Postal Service is operated by an autonomous public corporation that replaced the Post Office Department in 1971. The Postal Service is responsible for the collection, transportation, and delivery of the mails, and for the operation of thousands of local post offices across the country. It also provides international mail service through the Universal Postal Union and other agreements with foreign countries."

"The USPS is often mistaken for a government-owned corporation (e.g., Amtrak), but as noted above is legally defined as an "independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States," (39 U.S.C. § 201) as it is wholly owned by the government and controlled by the Presidential appointees and the Postmaster General. As a quasi-governmental agency, it has many special privileges, including sovereign immunity, eminent domain powers, powers to negotiate postal treaties with foreign nations, and an exclusive legal right to deliver first-class and third-class mail. Indeed in 2004, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the USPS was not a government-owned corporation and therefore could not be sued under the Sherman Antitrust Act"

I have enough reason to believe they are not a wholly federal organization and therefore it's employees are not federal workers.

It is a private company that is run by the gov't appointed people. It takes advantage of it's private nature and also is covered by the federal gov't.

 

[HobbyGuy]

I OC into my bank every day during the summer. Just don't feel like trying to hide it. All the tellers and managers know me, and know that I carry. I had one teller recently ask me why I carried. I responded with I believe in the 2A and I can. She replied, "Cool. Me too."

 

[JosephR]

I hope you then followed that up with "I also believe in hot casual sex..."

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Not a lawyer but this seems legit. Cant find the penalties though.
39 CFR 232.1

(l) Weapons and explosives . Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:
Which would seem to outlaw carry in a post office, self defense is not a official purpose but IANAL.

 

[airmotive]

FWIW,
In Texas we're required to take training (8 hours, classroom, written test, then range time) for a CHL. In that training it was made very clear, and was also part of the written test, that any Post office was a big no-no for CC. (There's no OC in Texas, so that was covered as well).
No posting required on the door. The simple fact that it was a post office was sufficient. (And Texas is really strict on the door postings...the "30.06 sign"...if the verbage wasn't exactly right or lettering wasn't the right size or color, the sign was not valid. The Post Office however, no sign needed: it's a gun free zone)

 

[MrBogok]

Employees are not allowed to carry weapons of any kind while in or around Postal property while on official buisness. Doing so will result in the immediate firing of that employee. Postal employees are federal employees and as such the building they work in are federal bldgs.

 

[emsdial911]

Yesterday I went to the bank machine to withdraw some money to pay some bills. The machine is between two sets of doors so I figured no prob that I was OCing.
The stupid thing gave me 300 dollars in 10's. Not wanting to carry that wad of cash around I needed to go inside. I wondered if I should go back to the truck and take my weapon off or just leave it on. I decided to leave it on. There were two customers ahead of me and three other employees that were not helping customers. NO ONE EVEN BLINKED. I don't know if no one noticed or if they didn't see me as a threat who knows.

 

[GhostofWinter]

Employees are not allowed to carry weapons of any kind while in or around Postal property while on official buisness. Doing so will result in the immediate firing of that employee. Postal employees are federal employees and as such the building they work in are federal bldgs.

ACTUALLY it's not a federal building. And here is why I say so. My father was out and about and was in need of a restroom so he stopped in at a local (read large and new within the last 5 years post office) and inquired as to if they had a public restroom. He was informed that they didn't. When he expressed his astoundment at the fact that a FEDERAL building did not have a public restroom he was informed that the post office was merely LEASING the building and therefore not a federal building.

Also just because a business (IE the post office) prohibits it's employees from carrying on the premises as well as subjecting those to dismissal for doing such doesn't qualify as a federal building either. I work for a Steel Mill in NW Indiana and I am subject to the very same restrictions as a mail carrier is in terms of carrying a firearm on the premises or even in my vehicle. HECK I can't even carry a KNIFE!

Greg

 

[marv]

Our banks and the Post Office ar4 not posted. The hospital has "no firearms" signs on the doors. The Owensboro, KY hospital has "no concealed weapons " signs prominently posted on all the doors.

 

[mrw]

Banks are an OC/CC destination. Isn't transporting money the number one reason for business carrying? That's how I got into CC. Hell, I used to see this old guy bring in his deposits with a shotgun over his shoulder. Nobody ever said a thing.