death row certainly needs an overhaul. its obviously not a deterrent, and i remember hearing somewhere that its actually more expensive to house a condemned man than it is someone with a life sentence(im to lazy to google it right now, so if thats not true ill just eat that line). guys are sitting on xrow for literally decades. the burden of proof needs to be much much higher for capital cases and their appeals should be cut down.
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Capital Punishment
- Thread starter confused89
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Ummm..they are dead. No in reality I am sure there are innocent people incarcerated as well as sentenced to death. Research David Camm. Talk about a blotched investigation!! While Camm is not sentenced to death he is still locked up awaiting trial #3!! Those innocent numbers are no doubt small. Even more so for capital punishment cases. Don't get me wrong, even one is to many. So maybe we should not jail anyone because some might surely be innocent. Our system is not perfect. But I don't think there are any that are better.
I still think we need capital punishment. And a death sentence should not mean dying at the old age of 90 when you were sentenced at 20 years of age. That is ridiculous.
Your faith in the police and justice system is just so cute.
Anyway, back on topic, I'm absolutely against it. Some cases almost demand death. There are some evil people out there. That's all true... but I can't settle for even one innocent finding themselves framed, railroaded, mistaken for the guilty party and murdered.
The difference between someone wrongly in jail or wrongly put to death is simple and so obvious it's hard to believe I have to point it out - WE CAN LET THEM OUT OF JAIL. We can't let them out of dead.
So, I'll ask you the same question no one else who is for the death penalty will answer:
How many innocents put to death are worth keeping the death penalty? Ten percent? One percent? How many many out of 100 is worth it how many when it's no longer worth it?
If you can't answer that question, I can't see how your pro capital punishment is a logical one.
The incentives for the prosecution are all wrong. They're evaluated on conviction rate. What kind of backwards system is that? The only way the prosecution is doing their job right is if they imprison everyone the cops haul into court???
That's not the American system of Justice.
That's not the American system of Justice.
That's also what leads to piling on dozens of crimes that are really the same act that add up to many years in jail, or offering a plea bargain where the guy pleads guilty and serves almost no time. No trial, just a conviction.
I know a guy serving eighty some years who could have gotten out in just a couple of years had he taken the plea. He insisted on his innocence and lost in court.
If a guy's crime is so terrible he has eighty years at risk, how can a prosecutor offer him two or three if he pleads guilty?
The commonly held belief that the justice system is skewed because unscrupulous defense attorneys lie to get guilty people off isn't the real problem. The real problem is the people who go to jail because they can't afford an effective defense so they take a plea to avoid a potential larger penalty.
The cops investigate to find evidence for the prosecution. If you want the fact investigated, you have to pay for that yourself. If you can't afford it, too bad.
The irreversible permanent punishment of death demands a 100% perfect, infallible, just and fair justice system. No matter how hard we strive to make our justice system work, fallible human beings will never be able to be perfect. So let's just not do it.
I will add to the executing innocents issue by saying that whether or not someone gets the ultimate punishment depends on how much money they had to spend on a defense. Also, a lot depends on the discretion of prosecutors, such as whether or not charge someone with felony murder. Like so many things in life, that's just how things are, but when it comes to the government putting someone to death, we just shouldn't do it. Our justice system just can't be fair enough to warrant that kind of penalty.
I will add to the executing innocents issue by saying that whether or not someone gets the ultimate punishment depends on how much money they had to spend on a defense. Also, a lot depends on the discretion of prosecutors, such as whether or not charge someone with felony murder. Like so many things in life, that's just how things are, but when it comes to the government putting someone to death, we just shouldn't do it. Our justice system just can't be fair enough to warrant that kind of penalty.
Well, at least you're honest enough to state you won't change your mind in the face of things like "logic" and "innocent people dying."
steveh_131
Grandmaster
But just imagine the number of people you could convert to your point of view with your impeccable logic and writing style.
It could number in the high zeros. Maybe even negative numbers, there's no telling.
I'm coming late to this argument so most of the good stuff has already been said by Dross and Fletch.
In principle I support the idea that some people are so evil that we are better off killing them.
In reality I see that our justice system, while better than any other, has certain flaws in it such that innocent people do get caught up in the process.
Part of the problem is that some of the jobs go to elected officials and the temptation is strong to bend the rules when an election is at stake. An excellent example is the Duke Lacross case.
Duke lacrosse case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While the Duke case is not a capital punishment case, it provides a prime example of an elected official making a series of decisions that were aimed at achieving re-election at the cost of someone else's freedom. This also leads into another aspect of the Duke Lacrosse case that is relative to this thread:
The Criminal Justice System in America works pretty darn good if you are wealthy.
The defendants in the duke case came from wealthy families who could afford good lawyers. On the other hand, if you are poor, results may vary. The system is stacked heavily against a defendant from the start. The state has police to control what evidence is collected and what isn't. The state has the ability to seize property and lock up the defendant which can cause them to lose their job, their home, their car, etc. The pressure on a defendant to quickly plead guilty can be enormous, especially, as was mentioned above, if they are faced with decades in prison and offered months if they plead.
For the defendant who decides to fight, they will need to be able to counteract the State's early lead in the process. A public defender, regardless of how dedicated, does not have the time or the resources to compete with the state on a level playing field. To even the odds, a defendant who is serious about fighting a major charge will need investigators of their own to go out and search for evidence, they will need more than one lawyer to research and draft briefs. This is beyond the means of the average person.
I agree with the other posters who have said that so long as we see persons who are convicted of capital offenses and then are later found to be innocent it is hard to support the death penalty such as it is.
In principle I support the idea that some people are so evil that we are better off killing them.
In reality I see that our justice system, while better than any other, has certain flaws in it such that innocent people do get caught up in the process.
Part of the problem is that some of the jobs go to elected officials and the temptation is strong to bend the rules when an election is at stake. An excellent example is the Duke Lacross case.
Duke lacrosse case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While the Duke case is not a capital punishment case, it provides a prime example of an elected official making a series of decisions that were aimed at achieving re-election at the cost of someone else's freedom. This also leads into another aspect of the Duke Lacrosse case that is relative to this thread:
The Criminal Justice System in America works pretty darn good if you are wealthy.
The defendants in the duke case came from wealthy families who could afford good lawyers. On the other hand, if you are poor, results may vary. The system is stacked heavily against a defendant from the start. The state has police to control what evidence is collected and what isn't. The state has the ability to seize property and lock up the defendant which can cause them to lose their job, their home, their car, etc. The pressure on a defendant to quickly plead guilty can be enormous, especially, as was mentioned above, if they are faced with decades in prison and offered months if they plead.
For the defendant who decides to fight, they will need to be able to counteract the State's early lead in the process. A public defender, regardless of how dedicated, does not have the time or the resources to compete with the state on a level playing field. To even the odds, a defendant who is serious about fighting a major charge will need investigators of their own to go out and search for evidence, they will need more than one lawyer to research and draft briefs. This is beyond the means of the average person.
I agree with the other posters who have said that so long as we see persons who are convicted of capital offenses and then are later found to be innocent it is hard to support the death penalty such as it is.
squirrelhntr
Shooter
some definitley deserve it, but how can u tell they r really guilty ????i guess its like firearms ownership, some innocents r accidently killed, but the government does'nt have a right to ban firearms ownership. whether the government is compatent or not. stuff happens
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Excellent post. Clearly there was plenty of good stuff left to say.
You need to post more often around here.
I kind of envy people like you. It must feel very secure to go about your life with your mind made up about things without having to consider logic, fairness, other people, and facts.
Trust me, it's a lot harder to be the other way.
The fact that you're a cop is kinda' scary, though. Have you thought about working as a beaurocrat in some government office? I think you'd fit right in there, but your authority over your fellow citizens would just be an annoyance.
Because seriously, the attitude you display on this board makes me pray that I never have to interact with you in your official capacity. Frightening.
Put me in the camp that used to believe in it but now realizes that the government is too corrupt and incompetent to be trusted with that power.
As our government labels more things as terrorism and treason, that fear will grow exponentially.
As our government labels more things as terrorism and treason, that fear will grow exponentially.
Paco Bedejo
Master
I agree with you.
I support the death penalty just like I support socialism. Both could be used to eliminate evil in this world. The problem, however, is that both would require administration by a person or persons who are omniscient & omnipresent. I know our government is getting closer to this goal, but will never fully achieve it.
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