Firearms in checked baggage

[bbucking]

What he said. Also, some clarifications:

The firearm must be in a locked container. That locked container can be checked luggage by itself, or it can be placed inside of other, checked luggage.

IMX, there is no need to "call ahead" to the airline. It is the ticket counter agent that will provide you the declaration form to fill out, and who will handle/process your luggage, and calling ahead won't facilitate that process.

I've never had anyone "inspect" my declared/checked firearm. I merely showed it to the ticket counter agent when declaring it, then locked the case and placed the declaration form on top of it. TSA *may* further inspect the declared firearm, but I've never had that happen, going through IND.

Ammunition does not have to be in OEM packaging, but cannot be "bulk" packed (even if OEM packaged that way); it must be in packaging that holds/separates each round individually. Each airline sets its ammunition weight limit separately, but IMX, 11 pounds seems pretty standard.

It must be the airports that I typically go to but in my experience my firearm has been inspected 100% of the time. IND may not. And the call ahead is required by the airline I use if you check in online. Although again I have used a different airline in a different state then most of you. (Hawaiian Airlines, HNL)

So I would trust your experience in Indiana however be aware of the different protocols at other airports and airlines.

 

[chipbennett]

It must be the airports that I typically go to but in my experience my firearm has been inspected 100% of the time. IND may not. And the call ahead is required by the airline I use if you check in online. Although again I have used a different airline in a different state then most of you. (Hawaiian Airlines, HNL)

So I would trust your experience in Indiana however be aware of the different protocols at other airports and airlines.

This is the ultimate point: check with your airline. Even accurate information can change.

BTW, I always check in online, and have never had an issue. What airline do you usually fly? I usually stick to Delta and United.

 

[bbucking]

This is the ultimate point: check with your airline. Even accurate information can change.

BTW, I always check in online, and have never had an issue. What airline do you usually fly? I usually stick to Delta and United.

I have only traveled with a firearm using Hawaiian Airlines, I did interisland flights 10+ times with a firearm and that is my experience. Sounds like other airlines have an easier time in checking firearms in.

 

[Drail]

Depending on who is working the counter when you walk up.......

 

[Alamo]

For those of you that fly out of Indianapolis International, you might find this explanation of procedure from the TSA at IND of use. Emphasis was in the original email to me:

Good Afternoon,

I received your TSA Contact Center report regarding firearms in checked bags at Indianapolis International Airport.

As described by the Center, IND checked bag screening occurs in a secure area. If you wish to be present for a firearm inspection, you must advise the airline at check in before the bag is placed on the belt. They will contact TSA, and we will meet you and conduct the inspection in a specified location.

Once the bag enters the system, however, it cannot be brought back out of the secure area by TSA. The checkpoint is called for the key/combo. The supervisor can have you view the inspection on cctv. Many travelers with firearms who require this means of inspection go directly to the supervisor station at the back of the checkpoint after completing their screening and stand by. This saves time not having to page the passenger and waiting for them to come to the station.

We understand the concern for the security and safety of firearms, and gladly work with the traveling public.

 

[chipbennett]

For those of you that fly out of Indianapolis International, you might find this explanation of procedure from the TSA at IND of use. Emphasis was in the original email to me:

So, does viewing the inspection via CCTV imply that TSA, and not the owner of the firearm, is in possession of the key for the locked firearm case - in violation of federal law?

 

[Drail]

We da TSA. We is da law.

 

[EOD Guy]

So, does viewing the inspection via CCTV imply that TSA, and not the owner of the firearm, is in possession of the key for the locked firearm case - in violation of federal law?

How else are the to unlock the case? Curious, why would it be a violation?

 

[Drail]

They are supposed to come get you and you are supposed to open the case, watch while they inspect it and then lock it back up. That way nothing can be removed from or added to the case. It protects everyone in the process. It is a good idea. You must not use a TSA lock because then anyone can open the case and steal stuff while it is out of sight.

 

[j706]

Never had any problems checking in a handgun but have always been singled out for closer inspection afterwords.

 

[chipbennett]

How else are the to unlock the case? Curious, why would it be a violation?

49 CFR 1544.203 (f)(2)(iii):

No aircraft operator may knowingly permit any person to transport in checked baggage: Any unloaded firearm(s) unless— The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination...

 

[EOD Guy]

49 CFR 1544.203 (f)(2)(iii):

No aircraft operator may knowingly permit any person to transport in checked baggage: Any unloaded firearm(s) unless— The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination...

Thanks for the reference!

 

[Alamo]

49 CFR 1544.203 (f)(2)(iii):

No aircraft operator may knowingly permit any person to transport in checked baggage: Any unloaded firearm(s) unless— The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination...

I have a question into the TSA guy at IND who answered the question about procedures, about the other CFR reference to possession (Section 1540). He said he passed it on to their legal department.

But after reading the both sections of the CFR that reference possession of the key/combo, I am pretty sure I know what the answer will be:
Those parts of the CFR address and constrain the aircraft operator (the first subsection of 1544 explicitly states this). They do not apply to the TSA's actions, and in fact the second subsection of Section 1544 pretty much says the aircraft operator may not interfere with the TSA's inspection procedures.

Also, see the next post about TSA locks.

 

[Alamo]

So I asked the TSA specifically about TSA locks:

Thank you for contacting the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) Contact Center regarding travel with firearms using TSA-recognized locks.

On flights that originate in the United States, passengers may transport a firearm in accordance with 49 CFR §1540.111 under the following conditions:

The firearm must be:
• Unloaded;
• Declared to the airline;
• In checked baggage, not carry-on;
• In a locked, hard-sided container.

Travelers may use any kind or type of lock for securing firearm cases, including
TSA-recognized locks. However, TSA does not recommend or endorse any specific brand or type of lock to use on firearm containers.

For clarification, as defined by 49 CFR §1540.5 a loaded firearm has a live round of ammunition, or any component thereof, in the chamber or cylinder or in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Please be sure that all firearms are unloaded and properly packaged, prior to arriving at the airport.

We encourage passengers to familiarize themselves with TSA Travel Tips at www.tsa.gov\travel\travel-tips. The Web site has information about prohibited and permitted items, the screening process and procedures, and guidance for special considerations that may assist them in preparing for air travel. Passengers may also search the Web site’s database of prohibited and permitted items using the “When I fly can I bring my… feature on the homepage of www.tsa.gov.

We hope this information is helpful.

TSA Contact Center

I noticed years ago that the TSA website info on transporting firearms changed the language about locks to imply that TSA locks were OK. They used to be a lot more specific about the lock, including the bit about only the passenger having the key/combo, but they dropped that not long after the TSA lock came into being.

I would not be surprised to find that there are other sections pertaining to aircraft security that give the TSA power to inspect every item in checked baggage, notwithstanding any other regulation. For better or worse you can't pull just one line out of the law and have complete knowledge of an issue. the law has to be read as a whole.

 

[chipbennett]

I have a question into the TSA guy at IND who answered the question about procedures, about the other CFR reference to possession (Section 1540). He said he passed it on to their legal department.

But after reading the both sections of the CFR that reference possession of the key/combo, I am pretty sure I know what the answer will be:
Those parts of the CFR address and constrain the aircraft operator (the first subsection of 1544 explicitly states this). They do not apply to the TSA's actions, and in fact the second subsection of Section 1544 pretty much says the aircraft operator may not interfere with the TSA's inspection procedures.

Also, see the next post about TSA locks.

The TSA cannot force carriers to violate federal law in the implementation of their inspection procedures. Also, since TSA provides security on behalf of the carrier, is the only entity that actually performs inspections, and therefore would be the only entity who may possess a key/combo other than the passenger, it is obvious that the statute does and must apply to the TSA.

 

[chipbennett]

So I asked the TSA specifically about TSA locks:

I noticed years ago that the TSA website info on transporting firearms changed the language about locks to imply that TSA locks were OK. They used to be a lot more specific about the lock, including the bit about only the passenger having the key/combo, but they dropped that not long after the TSA lock came into being.

I would not be surprised to find that there are other sections pertaining to aircraft security that give the TSA power to inspect every item in checked baggage, notwithstanding any other regulation. For better or worse you can't pull just one line out of the law and have complete knowledge of an issue. the law has to be read as a whole.

I wonder if this would be something worth giving Jim Lucas a call about? Obviously, even as much as I like TSA at IND (they're pretty much the best of any airport I've been through), they're obviously operating outside of the CFR, and have no intent to change their practices even after being confronted with the plain language of the relevant statutes.

Do you have the name of the TSA person with whom you've been communicating? Would you be willing to forward me any relevant correspondence? I'd really like to find a way to get a resolution of this issue, as someone who travels weekly, and depending on client/location, have reason to be impacted directly by TSA's policies.

 

[Alamo]

The TSA cannot force carriers to violate federal law in the implementation of their inspection procedures. Also, since TSA provides security on behalf of the carrier, is the only entity that actually performs inspections, and therefore would be the only entity who may possess a key/combo other than the passenger, it is obvious that the statute does and must apply to the TSA.

OK for the sake of argument, how is the TSA forcing the aircraft operator to violate "law" (really, regulation with the force of law) when both are operating under the exact same section of the CFR?

I told you how I read it, when/if the TSA legal beagles respond, I'll let you know.

 

[Alamo]

...

Do you have the name of the TSA person with whom you've been communicating? Would you be willing to forward me any relevant correspondence? I'd really like to find a way to get a resolution of this issue, as someone who travels weekly, and depending on client/location, have reason to be impacted directly by TSA's policies.

I don't have it handy with me and I have to run. Will probably be Monday before I get back to the forum.

 

[mammynun]

For travel in the US it's easy. It has to be in a seperate locked hard container and cannot be it your regular travel bag. You should call ahead to your airline and let them know you plan to check a firearm in on your flight. When you arrive at the airport you need to have the gun inspected by the on site official and lock it up. They take it from there. Also there is a certain amount of ammo that you can take with you however it must be in original packaging. I usually put ammo in my regular checked bag seperate from my gun. I would check the TSA website to see if you can transport it in the same case. But overall it's fairly easy and carefree.

I fly with a firearm on nearly a weekly basis, and ^this^ does not describe any of my experiences other than being "easy."

What he said. Also, some clarifications:

The firearm must be in a locked container. That locked container can be checked luggage by itself, or it can be placed inside of other, checked luggage.

IMX, there is no need to "call ahead" to the airline. It is the ticket counter agent that will provide you the declaration form to fill out, and who will handle/process your luggage, and calling ahead won't facilitate that process.

I've never had anyone "inspect" my declared/checked firearm. I merely showed it to the ticket counter agent when declaring it, then locked the case and placed the declaration form on top of it. TSA *may* further inspect the declared firearm, but I've never had that happen, going through IND.

Ammunition does not have to be in OEM packaging, but cannot be "bulk" packed (even if OEM packaged that way); it must be in packaging that holds/separates each round individually. Each airline sets its ammunition weight limit separately, but IMX, 11 pounds seems pretty standard.

^This^ is much closer to my experiences, though I have never shown my firearm (or the locked case, for that matter) to a ticket agent. I once had a ticket agent get all squirrelly when I declared my firearm, and he walked me to a room where a TSA agent inspected the locked case while I watched; he never asked for the key, and I didn't offer it.

What chaps my ass is, that since AA and USAir merged, some AA agents have taken to putting a red "Special Handling" tag on bags containing firearms. This is not supposed to happen per some US Code as it makes the bag a target. To make matters worse, some airports hold these bags until all others have been claimed and then they walk it out. Then they want to see the other half of the baggage tag before they give it to you.

 

[chipbennett]

OK for the sake of argument, how is the TSA forcing the aircraft operator to violate "law" (really, regulation with the force of law) when both are operating under the exact same section of the CFR?

I told you how I read it, when/if the TSA legal beagles respond, I'll let you know.

49 CFR 1544.203 (f)(2)(iii):

No aircraft operator may knowingly permit any person to transport in checked baggage: Any unloaded firearm(s) unless— The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination...

This regulation applies to the carrier. If the individual checking the baggage does not retain the key/combo, because TSA takes it from the individual, then it is the carrier that is failing to meet the regulation. In that situation, the TSA, through its inspection policy, has forced the carrier into a state/condition where it cannot meet the regulation.