FIVE Reasons why FREE Community College is a Terrible Idea

[Alpo]

I agree with both of you. We have become a society that wants what it wants when it wants it.

As to Bernie's "Plan". He has no plan, despite what his handlers have put together. He has a direction. He has a view. What the hell was Bush Sr.'s "thousand points of light" or JFK's "Shining City upon a Hill" (Matthew 5:14)? They give us a feel for the man. His sense of his country and his place in it, along with our place. It is more than campaign rhetoric, but less than policy. I don't know what we'll see in 2017, but Bernie talking about improved educational access is, to me, better than anything that Hillary lets escape from those chapped lips.

 

[eldirector]

Additionally, I am still astounded by the myth that everyone needs, or would benefit from, a college education:

More than 2/3 of all jobs nationwide only require a High School education OR LESS.

 

[Hohn]

I agree with both of you. We have become a society that wants what it wants when it wants it.

As to Bernie's "Plan". He has no plan, despite what his handlers have put together. He has a direction. He has a view. What the hell was Bush Sr.'s "thousand points of light" or JFK's "Shining City upon a Hill" (Matthew 5:14)? They give us a feel for the man. His sense of his country and his place in it, along with our place. It is more than campaign rhetoric, but less than policy. I don't know what we'll see in 2017, but Bernie talking about improved educational access is, to me, better than anything that Hillary lets escape from those chapped lips.

Pretty sure that Reagan, not JFK, coined the "shining city on a hill" metaphor. Right?

 

[Bill of Rights]

I understand the concept of "going it alone" and standing on your own hind legs very well. Like some/many of you, I could not depend upon my family for support after high school. Would I have accepted help had it been available? Most certainly. Past a certain point, self-sacrifice isn't very beneficial to the development of the individual.

I think we are talking about a couple of spectrums here, from Selflessness to Selfishness. From Self-Starter to "I don't do very well on my own". From Bright to Not So Bright. From Ideal Parent to These People Should Not Breed.

While individual cases or small group idealism is an interesting exercise and generally proves that almost any combination of factors can be combined to achieve an "ideal" (to you) set of conditions, that doesn't work, generally, for the 300 million people in America overall, or the 7 billion people world wide. I know that some of you have managed large group behavior, and it is in that context that I think most of us recognize that we can't always control outcomes, even in almost ideal circumstances.

I don't remember who said it, but it is something I remember from a seminar somewhere: The challenge is to get extraordinary results out of ordinary people. Granted, in the companies I've worked in and with over the years, their "ordinary" is at least a standard deviation above the 'ordinary' to start with.

All this is to reiterate that I have no objection to home schooling or great parenting. But most people are not capable of effectively doing so. Not in this generation. Perhaps not ever. And while genetics plays some part in children rising to their full potential, I believe for the great majority of parents, we have a better chance at helping a child achieve their potential in a school system rather than the random ministrations of their parents. I'll give you your "exception", as long as you recognize it as exceptional.

I'm in my late 60's and though I've carved my path along this time line pretty much on my own (along with my wife), I have had emotional, spiritual and financial (banking) support along the way. I think I have enough humility to recognize that I'm no better than anyone else, and I am grateful to others for the assistance they've provided me over the years.

All that is playing in the background when I say that an education post secondary school is almost mandatory now for the careers most desired in this post-industrial society. We should also recognize that the generation responsible for rearing children today have not left a better world to our heirs. Take your pick: housing, general cost of living, sense of community, illegal drugs, terrorism.

Is it so much to ask that we direct some of our resources toward those who have to climb over the barriers that we have built in their way? I know you say that YOU do not value anything given to you. (I think you overstate your case. I'm sure of that....none of you walk past the free food handed out in Sam's Club for godsakes). That is not true in general and it certainly is not true of anyone who is in need. People require assistance from time to time. I would hope we could help the next generation get started without a tremendous debt burden. We can talk about who is responsible for that and why...but that doesn't help an 18 or 19 year old kid, because all we are doing is talking. Nothing is getting done.

Now this is much more the kind of post I can get behind. I still don't fully agree with you, but the way you say what you say, here, is outstanding. I'm not above taking something that someone offers for free, but how much value do I give it? Is it worth excess effort on my part to obtain it? That is, I already have a membership at Sam's, but if I did not, I wouldn't go to college specifically to obtain a job where I could qualify for a membership there to get the free food. I'm also not going to get in the car and spend the gas to drive over there just to walk by and get the samples. If I'm already there, sure, I'll listen to their spiel and maybe buy the product, which is the end goal, of course. From a corporate POV, they have to decide if their sales will be increased enough to afford paying the wages for someone to stand there and hawk their product, to pay their costs of producing whatever is given out, the cost of the oven, if any, to prepare the product, and any loss they sustain when some kid knocks over the stand and has the oven land on his leg, causing massive full-thickness burns until someone gets it off of him. If the value is there, they will fund the "free" food samples.

Here is a short list I have compiled of ways to pay for college, or attend at a reduced rate, without taking out a loan:

1. Apply for scholarships and grants (billions of dollars are already given away each year)
2. Save your summer job money
3. Apply for work-study jobs on campus
4. Take college credit courses in High School
5. Get good grades (leads to scholarships)
6. Score well on the SAT/ACT (more scholarships)
7. Be active in your church/community (more scholarships)
8. Play sports (more scholarships)
9. Complete the FAFSA (ignore the loans, look for grants)
10. Enter a Community College for all basic courses, and transfer to a University to complete your degree
11. Enter the military and take your GI benefit
12. Attend a State school, rather than Private (cheaper rates)
13. Attend school in-state (cheaper rates)
14. Commute (live at home rather than on campus)
15. Take a full load all summer and graduate early (same tuition expense, but enter the workforce faster)
16. Alternatively, work part-time and attend college part-time (takes longer, but pay as you go)
17. Earn an Associates, then take an adjunct faculty position at the college. Complete your Bachelor's degree at a reduced rate.

In short - the government is helping more than enough already.

Outstanding list. Nicely done, Ryan.

I'd like to add a "plug" as well, for something of which I became aware: Coursera

Someone told me about this, I forget who, but it allows you to essentially do an online audit of college courses from some very well-known universities, the same courses their students are paying big money to attend. The difference is that you're taking the course at no cost to you, other than the cost of an internet connection and a method to make use of it, and your time. I said upthread that I CLEPped out of sociology; my plan was to audit the course prior to doing so, however, they didn't offer it in the time frame I needed, so I used a different route to study. That said, the course offered was from Princeton, IIRC. Top quality education. No monetary payment to the university. Come out with a higher knowledge level, sufficient to do better in college coursework at the community college or local university level, or as I did, CLEP, and pay less for the classes.

www.coursera.org is the site.

I also erroneously misstated the cost of Ivy Tech, upthread. The cost was upwards of $300/class, not $300/hr. I will be amending my post. The cost of Texas Tech, back in the day, was correctly stated: $4/hr. (in-state tuition) I am quite certain, sight unseen, that that is far below the current cost. (ETA: It is. Current per-hour tuition cost there for an in-state student is 49 times that, at $196/hr. No typo.)

Blessings,
Bill

 

[HoughMade]

Where my son is going, they have a 3 year bachelor option, which he is taking. That saves 25% because the college charges the same tuition per year regardless. Scholarships- yes. Grants? Ha! We've already gotten the letter telling us we qualify for- work-study, which means we essentially qualify for nothing.

In Indiana, there is a decent 529 tax credit in addition to 529 contributions being tax free.

The real issue is the rate of educational cost increase which, IMHO is related directly to the ease of obtaining federal money to attend.

 

[Alpo]

Pretty sure that Reagan, not JFK, coined the "shining city on a hill" metaphor. Right?

I thought it was Reagan, but I looked it up before I used it. First attribution, per WikiPedia is JFK

In the twentieth century, the image was used a number of times in American politics. On 9 January 1961, President-Elect John F. Kennedy returned the phrase to prominence during an address delivered to the General Court of Massachusetts:[2]

...I have been guided by the standard John Winthrop set before his shipmates on the flagship Arbella three hundred and thirty-one years ago, as they, too, faced the task of building a new government on a perilous frontier. "We must always consider", he said, "that we shall be as a city upon a hill—the eyes of all people are upon us".

 

[jamil]

Just incidentally, statements like "thousand points of light" and "shining city on a hill" are flowery would-be platitudes that important people use as a rhetorical tool to sound important. They have no practical meaning.

 

[Alpo]

Hmmmm. I think you just pissed off Jesus:

You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[actaeon277]

Here is a short list I have compiled of ways to pay for college, or attend at a reduced rate, without taking out a loan:

1. Apply for scholarships and grants (billions of dollars are already given away each year)
2. Save your summer job money
3. Apply for work-study jobs on campus
4. Take college credit courses in High School
5. Get good grades (leads to scholarships)
6. Score well on the SAT/ACT (more scholarships)
7. Be active in your church/community (more scholarships)
8. Play sports (more scholarships)
9. Complete the FAFSA (ignore the loans, look for grants)
10. Enter a Community College for all basic courses, and transfer to a University to complete your degree
11. Enter the military and take your GI benefit
12. Attend a State school, rather than Private (cheaper rates)
13. Attend school in-state (cheaper rates)
14. Commute (live at home rather than on campus)
15. Take a full load all summer and graduate early (same tuition expense, but enter the workforce faster)
16. Alternatively, work part-time and attend college part-time (takes longer, but pay as you go)
17. Earn an Associates, then take an adjunct faculty position at the college. Complete your Bachelor's degree at a reduced rate.

In short - the government is helping more than enough already.

Many states have programs for injured vets, or kids of K.I.A.

Also programs through American Legion, and VFW.

 

[Hohn]

Hmmmm. I think you just pissed off Jesus:

Was Jesus referring to America? No.

 

[Alpo]

Silly. You need to bone up on history if you can't remember the timeframe of the Sermon on the Mount and the founding of the United States.

 

[HoughMade]

He wasn't talking about politics or using the force of law to take someone else's money to give it to someone else at all.

 

[Alpo]

who, Jesus? Perhaps you ought to think that through a bit. If there is anyone who should be an anathema to the greediness of many, He be the Man.

Luke 1:53 is the first thing that comes to mind...but there are many more.

 

[HoughMade]

who, Jesus? Perhaps you ought to think that through a bit. If there is anyone who should be an anathema to the greediness of many, He be the Man.

So you're equating being against wealth redistribution with "greediness". What Jesus called for was individuals helping others, not people who perceive themselves as middle class forcing other to provide as a punishment for achievement.

When the liberals who advocate wealth redistribution give as much of their own money to charity as conservatives do, they'll still be wrong, but at least they won't be wrong hypocrites.

 

[Alpo]

I won't spin this bottle with you. You have a sense of where I come from and if you intend to pick nits, find someone else to do it with.

 

[actaeon277]

who, Jesus? Perhaps you ought to think that through a bit. If there is anyone who should be an anathema to the greediness of many, He be the Man.

Luke 1:53 is the first thing that comes to mind...but there are many more.

So you're equating being against wealth redistribution with "greediness". What Jesus called for was individuals helping others, not people who perceive themselves as middle class forcing other to provide as a punishment for achievement.

Charity is giving to those in need.
Charity is not making your neighbor give to those in need, using your criteria of who is in need and how much to give.

 

[jamil]

Hmmmm. I think you just pissed off Jesus:

Was Jesus referring to America? No.

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's... Governments aren't individuals. Government's can't suffer the biblical hell. They have no teeth to gnash. No tears to weep. Only the individuals who abuse their authorities can suffer the promised penalties and only individuals who exemplify Christian principles can reap the rewards. I doubt Jesus would be too upset. Probably he'd be more pissed at me for the whole non-belief thing.

In the same vein, someone should slap the **** out of Kasich for trying to guilt Republicans for not implementing more of Matthew 25 in government.

 

[Alpo]

You're speaking to the wrong generation. We learned to live with paradoxes.

 

[Destro]

make every school a for-profit enterprise.

I like my schools like I like my charities...non-profit.

 

[Twangbanger]

I won't spin this bottle with you. You have a sense of where I come from and if you intend to pick nits, find someone else to do it with.

Where you claim to come from, is that "some people need help." (Which I agree). Where you actually ended up here, is "Government making it free for everyone is a good way to do that." When someone pins you down on the obvious, gigantic leap hidden there, you want to take your ball and bail.

It simply looks like you're not up to examining your beliefs, that's all.