Foamy On Gay Marriage

[strahd71]

You seem to have overlooked the story of Sodom an Gomorrah. That was in the Old Testament along with these other stories you have attempted to use to illigitimize the idea of traditional marriage that was established (Biblically at least) in the New Testament. If you are going to use the Bible to argue your position, please dont leave relavant information out.

oh i didnt over look it my friend, i agree with you 100% i was just pointing out there was more than just the old testament....... sorry if i wasnt clear,

jake

 

[buckwacker]

What you are proposing is a false dichotomy in the sense that one either believes in a universal, omnipotent, omnipresent god or nihilism. A religious faith is a philosophy and all philosophies make at least one assumption. From your perspective, you assume that there is a god, presumably with the qualities I mentioned earlier. You can't prove that god exists but you can't prove that god doesn't exist. I make 2 fundamental assumptions when it comes to morality:

1. Humans are rational and self-owning.
2. It is wrong to infringe upon another's self-ownership.

Overall, though, morality is spontaneous. Good doesn't need to come from a discrete source, it is inherent in man. If you don't believe me, answer this question honestly.

If you found out conclusively tomorrow that there was no god, would you:
A. Kick puppies
B. Become a malicious dictator and enslave a small country
C. Rob a bank
D. Make the best of it and continue on with your life.

First, please indicate where in my post I claimed there was a God. You wont find it.

Secondly, simply believing humans are inherently good does not make it so. We dont kick puppies or rob banks because it has been pounded into our brain (if we had any upbringing) that those kinds of things are wrong. Humans are not inherently good and it is only the influence of parents teachers and even religion that keeps society civil. If you dont believe me watch a spoiled brat for a few minutes and then tell me again that we are inherently good.

Additionally nothing in your reply, other than the humans are good thing, attempted to answer my question. If there is no higher moral authority than the state or society, then can we as a society not decide that anything we choose to believe is right or wrong?

 

[buckwacker]

oh i didnt over look it my friend, i agree with you 100% i was just pointing out there was more than just the old testament....... sorry if i wasnt clear,

jake

No, Jake. Included your post to seque into mine. My response was to Lupin3rd.

 

[indiucky]

The problem of your stance is that you are missing two important factors.

The first is that you cannot bind your children and grandchildren to a contract that you and your father and grandfather have signed. In essence, no matter how many generations a type contract exists you cannot impose its terms upon new generations (this is my major reason for hating social security but that's a debate for a different time).

The second is the definition of marriage has changed and this concept of "one man, one woman" is relatively new. In fact, the culture that adheres most closely with traditional marriage happen to be muslims.

It's not "my stance", it's just the way it is. The contract I was talking about is between the couple and has nothing to do with their progeny. If it did all of the kids in therapy because mom and dad divorced would be able to sue because mom and dad broke their contract.
Men and Woman have remained pretty much the same for the past 10,000 years. Marriage has always been between and man and a woman. I said nothing about how many men and women just that it had to be between the two opposing forces. (I loved your Soledad Obrien response though, it was almost word for word what she said yesterday.)
Contracts (or treaties, which I consider the marriage pact to be closer in style and substance to) are between opposing forces to reach some common ground. If two men get married there is no need for a contract, gay men are no better than straight men when it comes to selfishness, hedonism, and believing the world revolves around them. Women are there to remind us that this not the way to be. If there isn't a woman we devolve into our basest instincts which makes for an ugly world. We have to "woo" women (for lack of a better word) for intimacy. Gay men can get intimacy whenever they want because they are pursuing someone that thinks with the same organ they think with (that shall remain nameless.) In short they do not have to woo.
I was friends with a lesbian couple who were always in couples therapy. They both operate with their hearts and feelings and not a day would go by where one of them hadn't had her feelings hurt from some imagined slight from the other. There are reems of literature written about the differences between men and women and it's like the folks pushing the gay marriage agenda refuse to aknowledge this and when you try to bring it up they cover their ears and start saying "homophobe/bigot/I am not listening" until you finally give up.

The defination of marriage has never crossed sexes or species before. How many wives or husbands one could have, interracial marriages, intermarrying of different religons, etc.. have always evolved and no one questions that. Yet..Yesterday on CNN Soledad Obrien threw that out like "Aha!!! Gotcha!!! Marriage definations have always changed." Yes Mrs DNC they have...but....They have never crossed species or sexes so lets quit trying to equate the two. It shows a lack of knowledge of psychology, biology, anthropolgy, and social studies that borders on blindness to all but the dogma of NPR and the secular left.

I like NPR and the secular left. I just know they are wrong on this issue. Not because I say so but because history and logic says so.

 

[rambone]

Every time I see this thread title, I think Santorum is back in the news with a new nickname.

 

[indiucky]

Every time I see this thread title, I think Santorum is back in the news with a new nickname.

Do not google his name (Santorum) unless you have a strong stomach. That enlightened bully Dan Savage(but thinks he is an anti bully) kind of messed that up.

If a conservative did that to say...Oh I don't know..maybe that young lady Rush said was behaving badly and then coarsley questioned her virtue. I.E. That whenever you googled her name a sordid byproduct of a sex act popped up. Would that conservative leaning person be given the red carpet treatment by the MSM and appointed a spokesperson for an anti-bullying campaign? The double standards at play are so bright that I need to wear shades while watching the news.

 

[Stormvetprime]

Since it's impossible to be "born gay" - nature would have no way to pass such a gene along if it existed - it's a matter of behavior. That does not rise to the level of a civil right, nor does it fall in the same category as gender or race.

That said, who cares what gays do with each other or what they call it? As long as I do not have to knowingly participate with or acknowledge it or recognize it in any way during my 24x7x365 life, then I don't care. Freedom is for everyone and is a two way street.

Just like with the 2nd Amendment, the free exercise of religion is an individual right, not that of a church or a church business - and this means I do not have to hire them or conduct business with them if it violates my religious conscience. Since no one is born gay, this is not discriminatory to any extent that overrides the 1st Amendment.

 

[mrjarrell]

Since it's impossible to be "born gay" - nature would have no way to pass such a gene along if it existed - it's a matter of behavior. That does not rise to the level of a civil right, nor does it fall in the same category as gender or race.

That said, who cares what gays do with each other or what they call it? As long as I do not have to knowingly participate with or acknowledge it or recognize it in any way during my 24x7x365 life, then I don't care. Freedom is for everyone and is a two way street.

Just like with the 2nd Amendment, the free exercise of religion is an individual right, not that of a church or a church business - and this means I do not have to hire them or conduct business with them if it violates my religious conscience. Since no one is born gay, this is not discriminatory to any extent that overrides the 1st Amendment.

And just how do you know that "no-one is born gay"? Do you have some scientific evidence that the rest of the world doesn't? There's more than enough evidence from scientific studies to point to the fact that being gay is something that is innate and that people ARE born gay. I really would like to see your scientific evidence to the contrary.

 

[buckwacker]

And just how do you know that "no-one is born gay"? Do you have some scientific evidence that the rest of the world doesn't? There's more than enough evidence from scientific studies to point to the fact that being gay is something that is innate and that people ARE born gay. I really would like to see your scientific evidence to the contrary.

I am, as a male, born with the urge to inseminate every attractive female human being possible but that doesnt mean that I should do so or even make the attempt. It is a matter of choices and morality.

 

[mrjarrell]

I am, as a male, born with the urge to inseminate every attractive female human being possible but that doesnt mean that I should do so or even make the attempt. It is a matter of choices and morality.

So? You just happened to be born straight. Others are born gay, or transgender. You've offered up nothing that proves people aren't born gay. On the upside, you're one post closer to the classifieds.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

And just how do you know that "no-one is born gay"? Do you have some scientific evidence that the rest of the world doesn't? There's more than enough evidence from scientific studies to point to the fact that being gay is something that is innate and that people ARE born gay. I really would like to see your scientific evidence to the contrary.

What are you looking for? The same consensus science that says humans are the primary cause for global warming? Or maybe the consensus science that said the earth was about to enter an ice age 20 or so years ago? What about the science that force us to abandon CFC's because of an ozone hole we humans were causing? Of course there's the irrifutable (sp?) science that said oil came from dead dinosaurs and the earth was flat or the sun revolved around the earth.

People are born with the urge to eat more than they should. Society tells them not to. People are born with the urge to wrecklessly gamble their pay checks away, to drink too much alcohol, and other forms of self destructive behaviors. And yet, society tells them not too.

It just goes to show you when you have a well organized lobby and the pop-culture on your side, you can make any behavior (innate or learned) acceptable.

 

[strahd71]

There's more than enough evidence from scientific studies to point to the fact that being gay is something that is innate and that people ARE born gay. I really would like to see your scientific evidence to the contrary.

and what evidence is there that proves people are born gay? where is the smoking gun........... seems like if there was something legitimate we prolly wouldnt be having this discussion.

jake

 

[mrjarrell]

and what evidence is there that proves people are born gay? where is the smoking gun........... seems like if there was something legitimate we prolly wouldnt be having this discussion.

jake

There's plenty of evidence pointing to the fact that people are born gay. Have they found a specific gene yet? Nope. Then again, they haven't found the gene for being straight, either. There's plenty of scientific evidence to point to people being born the way they are. It shows up in nature in many other species, too. Can you provide evidence to contrary, (that isn't 50 years old)?

 

[jamil]

There's plenty of evidence pointing to the fact that people are born gay. Have they found a specific gene yet? Nope. Then again, they haven't found the gene for being straight, either. There's plenty of scientific evidence to point to people being born the way they are. It shows up in nature in many other species, too. Can you provide evidence to contrary, (that isn't 50 years old)?

Let's say for the sake of argument that there is a 'gay' gene. If some enterprizing scientist invented some kind of gene theropy that makes gay people straight, could he make any money?

 

[level.eleven]

Let's say for the sake of argument that there is a 'gay' gene. If some enterprizing scientist invented some kind of gene theropy that makes gay people straight, could he make any money?

If there is a market for such treatment, absolutely. There is a vast market in the United States for doctors who take a sharp stone to the genitals of infants. I am sure there is money to be made. That isn't exactly what gene therapy is, but for this discussion it will suffice.

The more likely scenario would be the isolation of that gene and it's subsequent removal from the population. Eugenics. This is one of several reasons many scientists, and I would imagine gay individuals, hesitate researching such genetic occurrences.

It also important to remember that genetic material, genes, aren't rigidly deterministic. A gene for "X" is a gene for that specific trait under the given environment.

 

[5.56'aholic]

Ill Will Press always cracks me up.

On a side note, I could really care less who wants to marry who. When those who think they need attention make it my problem, that is what pisses me off. This is why I have proposed the following for the past several years:

1. Atheists and those of minority faiths want religion out of the government.
2. Marriage has a basis in religion

Therefore, government should pull out of offering marriages to all, and only offer civil unions. Marriage should be limited to those institutions in which it is grounded.

This way, no religion is forced to acknowledge any same sex marriages, yet the government can give benefits to those same sex couples that rear children as they do for hetero marriages.

I do not agree with same sex marriage, but I also don't agree with people telling others what they can and cannot do as consenting adults. I also find it deplorable that those in support of gay marriage are the same fools who are pro-strict gun laws and other freedom limiting amendments against the constitution, while touting their own non-constitutionally recognized agendas. The hypocriticalness of our current society makes me want to puke.

 

[buckwacker]

So? You just happened to be born straight. Others are born gay, or transgender. You've offered up nothing that proves people aren't born gay. On the upside, you're one post closer to the classifieds.

You clearly missed my point. I didnt claim gay people weren't born that way. What I demonstrated with the example I gave was that just because we are born with certain desires does not mean that fulfulling those desires is a morally acceptable choice. Ill bet dollars to donuts that if I splet with 200 different women per year you would be looking down your nose at me, but it is somehow morally acceptable to you for two people of the same sex to engage in a perverse form of sexual behavior.

 

[level.eleven]

You clearly missed my point. I didnt claim gay people weren't born that way. What I demonstrated with the example I gave was that just because we are born with certain desires does not mean that fulfulling those desires is a morally acceptable choice. Ill bet dollars to donuts that if I splet with 200 different women per year you would be looking down your nose at me, but it is somehow morally acceptable to you for two people of the same sex to engage in a perverse form of sexual behavior.

I wouldn't look down upon you at all. Humanity has evolved to such a point where procreation, and the associate act, is pleasurable for both sexes, a rarity in our natural world. We have even devised uses for our alternate orifices. Clearly we are on to something. My only wish is that you make use of another important human trait, contraception.

 

[MMRUSH]

Lots and lots of different views,some good and others,well lets just say they speak for themselves. I believe this country in its original state was based on God and the laws of God. Gay marriage is not ok by any means read the Bible. Do not accept gay marriage,But do not condeme the gay because every man and woman has free will. In the end all those who live in sin and dosent ask for the salvation will suffer by the wrath of God.

 

[Stormvetprime]

No one is born gay. There is no gene for it. Even if there was, how would nature pass that along?

No, being a pervert is a choice and one that does not rise to special rights.

That said, let the perv's have whatever "ceremonies" they want. I know that in my 24x7x365 life my freedom of religion says I do not have to associate with them in any way, to include doing business with them or hiring them.

It is NOT discrimination to avoid bad behavior, and pevert behavior is in no way in the same class as race or gender.

Too bad. Not going to happen. End of discussion (Oh and God Bless NC!)