here's one for the lawyers

[zippy23]

Is this worth getting a lawyer? How much is the ticket? A hundred bucks? getting a lawyer instead of just dealing with it seems like so much effort and time and extra money(part of the way its designed) why do it? Do they have anything better to do than run plates in parking lots? We KNOW of areas that are high crime areas, it seems we have a lot of "protection" in places we dont need(like on I-465 between 7 and 9 a.m.)

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Same way a cop can

Which is how, exactly?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

That a person cannot plead the fifth in an infraction trial. Is it because it is a civil trial vs criminal?

Right, an infraction in Indiana (IF or OV cause number) is merely civil. The State of Indiana is suing you.

Prosecuting Attorney's call if this is an infraction or misdemeanor.

 

[sloughfoot]

You guys are so funny. All these convolutions and denigrating the Law Enforcement Officer and his integrity on behalf of somebody who thumbs her nose at all of you.

If her Indiana Driver License was suspended, she should not have been driving. Nothing else said by any of you changes that. Yes, she should have found an alternate way to work. I have had to do that myself. I didn't whine about it, I just did it. I screwed up.

Ultimately, a judge will weigh the facts presented and make a decision. I look forward to reading about that decision.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Thumbing one's nose at the government is an time-honored American tradition protected under the First Amendment.

As to driving while having made clerical errors, well, we shall see what the evidence brings.

 

[sloughfoot]

Thumbing one's nose at the government is an time-honored American tradition protected under the First Amendment.

I don't necessarily disagree. You misunderstand though. The Defendant in this case is thumbing her nose at those on ths forum who follow the law. Maybe at the State also, but we all should reasonably expect that those around us are at least attempting to be in compliance with the law.

I think it is reasonable to expect that if I am involved with a crash in a motor vehicle on an Indiana roadway that the other driver has a current drivers license and insurance. And that we will not have to go through extra machinations to exact rightful compensation for our injuries.

We will indeed discover if clerical errors have been made by the charging Officer. As someone who has filed cherges while "off duty" I suspect it will be a very tight case.

As to driving while having made clerical errors, well, we shall see what the evidence brings.

I don't necessarily disagree. You misunderstand though. The Defendant in this case is thumbing her nose at those on ths forum who follow the law. Maybe at the State also, but we all should reasonably expect that those around us are at least attempting to be in compliance with the law.

I think it is reasonable to expect that if I am involved with a crash in a motor vehicle on an Indiana roadway that the other driver has a current drivers license and insurance. And that we will not have to go through extra machinations to exact rightful compensation for our injuries.

We will indeed discover if clerical errors have been made by the charging Officer. As someone who has filed cherges while "off duty" I suspect it will be a very tight case.

As to driving while having made clerical errors, well, we shall see what the evidence brings

 

[sloughfoot]

I don't know why my response is this way. I don't know how to fix it.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I don't necessarily disagree. You misunderstand though. The Defendant in this case is thumbing her nose at those on ths forum who follow the law. Maybe at the State also, but we all should reasonably expect that those around us are at least attempting to be in compliance with the law.

I think it is reasonable to expect that if I am involved with a crash in a motor vehicle on an Indiana roadway that the other driver has a current drivers license and insurance. And that we will not have to go through extra machinations to exact rightful compensation for our injuries.

We will indeed discover if clerical errors have been made by the charging Officer. As someone who has filed cherges while "off duty" I suspect it will be a very tight case.

As to driving while having made clerical errors, well, we shall see what the evidence brings

Whoa! Did you just get a sense of Deja-vu? I surely did.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

You misunderstand though.

That is certainly the way to bet.

The Defendant in this case is thumbing her nose at those on ths forum who follow the law. Maybe at the State also, but we all should reasonably expect that those around us are at least attempting to be in compliance with the law.

Maybe. Maybe she is breaking the law, maybe not. Evidence-driven justice and all that.

Besides coming into HER place of employment should give any prosecutor second thoughts. I DREAM of depositions like this.

We will indeed discover if clerical errors have been made by the charging Officer.

No, not by the copper. Operating While Having Made Clerical Errors is how we say Operating While Suspended. It is a joke, sir.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Right, an infraction in Indiana (IF or OV cause number) is merely civil. The State of Indiana is suing you.

Prosecuting Attorney's call if this is an infraction or misdemeanor.

Yep, they are suing you and there is no injured party

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Yep, they are suing you and there is no injured party

Injured party? I don't understand.

The state is suing to enforce an ordinance or infraction, not because anyone is hurt.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Valid point, unless she can testify to only some of the questions and plead the 5th on others. Having an attorney there to speak for her will allow her to have a voice without using her own.



No, Tim. These would not be civil matters (person vs. person), but not exactly criminal (state vs. person) either. From my understanding of what Kirk is saying, in a criminal trial, you have the right to invoke the 5th and not testify against yourself. It sounds like he's saying that since the infraction is "not-criminal", ie misdemeanor or felony, but rather an infraction, you have to give an answer if asked. If you choose not to reply, of course you can't be compelled to speak, but you can be punished for not doing so. I don't know if that would be via the original charge or as a new contempt of court charge, for defying the judge's order to speak. We won't even get into perjury, which would be really stupid, earning a felony charge over an suspended license.

As is well-known, IANAL and TINLA, so if I'm mistaken on a point of material fact, I invite any LEO or counselor-at-law to correct the erroneous info, with my apologies in advance for the error.

Blessings,
Bill

Right, an infraction in Indiana (IF or OV cause number) is merely civil. The State of Indiana is suing you.

Prosecuting Attorney's call if this is an infraction or misdemeanor.

OK, obviously, I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying, Kirk.

How can a lawyer testify to something they didn't witness?

Same way a cop can

Would he have to? In such cases, can he not just poke holes in the prosecution's case?

This was what I was saying, Frank, only the fact that the attorney's job is to prove his opponent's case faulty. If the attorney can show that the defendant could have not driven, there is no proof that she operated while suspended. (Although the question comes to mind for me as to whether her tag had expired or her DL was suspended. The two are easily confused by just saying "license". Would the driver's DL suspension show when her plate was run?

Which is how, exactly?

Did the officer witness her DWS? How can he testify that she did, if he did not witness it?

As to Zippy's question, which didn't quote in for some reason, as to whether it is worth hiring a lawyer, I would first want to know why it was worth the officer's time and effort to track down this driver outside of her vehicle. If there was some ulterior motive for him to do so, possibly something not LE-related, then I would think it absolutely worth the time and money. It's an abuse of power and authority for him to use those records for other than LE purposes, if he did, and that needs stopped ASAP, especially since it may also be unlawful, and IIRC, could cost his department its authorization and access to IDACS.

I recently made an argument against LE just scanning license plates at random. I rescind that argument, as the information was voluntarily offered and made available to LE for the purpose of identifying vehicles. It's not the most liberty-conscious solution, but I don't see a viable alternative at this point. I'm open to one, but I don't at present see it. (Convince me, if you have a good one!) The officer is within his authority and duties to use those records to identify vehicles. It would seem, though, that it would make more sense from a time-efficiency standpoint, to just ticket the vehicle. That he came in and sought her out once could be "just being a nice guy". To do it twice smacks to me of impropriety.

I'm not sure what he expected to gain, though... It's not like costing her a bunch of money is going to enamor her of him.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bunnykid68]

Injured party? I don't understand.

The state is suing to enforce an ordinance or infraction, not because anyone is hurt.

Thats my entire point. How does anyone sue someone if there are no damages of any kind and it just not get thrown out.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Who here voluntarily gave this information? We were told we had to if we wanted to be able to drive our personal vehicles on the kings roads and travel freely.

 

[sloughfoot]

That is certainly the way to bet.



Maybe. Maybe she is breaking the law, maybe not. Evidence-driven justice and all that.

Besides coming into HER place of employment should give any prosecutor second thoughts. I DREAM of depositions like this.



No, not by the copper. Operating While Having Made Clerical Errors is how we say Operating While Suspended. It is a joke, sir.

Even if the State Officer is employed by the Shopping Mall where the Best Buy Store is located?

I have made a HUGE assumption by stating this, but given the time of year, may be a possibility. I have worked Mall patrol for many years myself. Although, I never ran plates unless there was a underlying reason to. Plate hanging down, not securely attached, Etc. Gut feeling. Observation of occupants. Never disregard gut feelings....

 

[Destro]

this thread is so full of win

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Thats my entire point. How does anyone sue someone if there are no damages of any kind and it just not get thrown out.

Damages can be many things. Here is it a violation of the statute (not using turn signal, open container, whatever) that serve as the damages.

Even if the State Officer is employed by the Shopping Mall where the Best Buy Store is located?

I have made a HUGE assumption by stating this, but given the time of year, may be a possibility.

Yeah, ok, sounds like a reasonable possibility. However, given ISP's history with um . . . overaggressive interactions with young, hot females I find it . . . less than optimal to show up at her place of employ rather than just waiting for her to drive home assuming she drove.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Damages can be many things. Here is it a violation of the statute (not using turn signal, open container, whatever) that serve as the damages.



Yeah, ok, sounds like a reasonable possibility. However, given ISP's history with um . . . overaggressive interactions with young, hot females I find it . . . less than optimal to show up at her place of employ rather than just waiting for her to drive home assuming she drove.

Damages to what? Seriously, where is the injured party? Am I really suppose to consider those damages? Next thing you know we will be able to sue someone for passing gas.

 

[sloughfoot]

Damages can be many things. Here is it a violation of the statute (not using turn signal, open container, whatever) that serve as the damages.



Yeah, ok, sounds like a reasonable possibility. However, given ISP's history with um . . . overaggressive interactions with young, hot females I find it . . . less than optimal to show up at her place of employ rather than just waiting for her to drive home assuming she drove.

You obviously have experience with this that I do not have. I guess we will just have to wait and see how this particular case ends up.

As an aside, I did not realize that this "History" of which you speak was an issue. I have never heard of it. Is it a secret, amongst lawyers, thing.?

I asked a question that I really hope that you do not answer. I really wantr to hold on to my illusions that those fine young men wearing those fancy hats are above reproach....

 

[mrortega]

Stalker.

Detective Ortega needs a pic of the "victim" to judge whether this was a stalk or not. I'm guessing it was.