Hollow Points for Military and LEOs

[cartmanfan15]

So, my wife asked me the other day an interesting question that I never really thought a whole lot about. Maybe some of the military or former military and LEOs or anyone who might know can chime in. My wife asked why the Military and LEOs don't use hollow point rounds in the handguns they carry. One thing I thought of was the cost, but I have also heard as well about ideas proposed by the Geneva Convention concerning torturing prisoners and now that military knives are not allowed to have serrated edges on them. Maybe this has something to do with it? Any input would be most appreciated.

 

[Amattern]

All LEO's I've seen do carry hollow points. don't really know about our military though.

 

[jeremy]

So, my wife asked me the other day an interesting question that I never really thought a whole lot about. Maybe some of the military or former military and LEOs or anyone who might know can chime in. My wife asked why the Military and LEOs don't use hollow point rounds in the handguns they carry. One thing I thought of was the cost, but I have also heard as well about ideas proposed by the Geneva Convention concerning torturing prisoners and now that military knives are not allowed to have serrated edges on them. Maybe this has something to do with it? Any input would be most appreciated.

The Military has NO Prohibitions against the Use or Carry of Serrated Knives...

Next the Military, I cannot speak about LEO, does follow several Treaties, Agreements, Accords, etc, etc... with several Nations that Prohibit the use of Hollow Point Rounds. Not to mention have you ever noticed how little a hollow point will penetrate?! Now do you think we are the only Military in the World wearing Armor?!

 

[BrewerGeorge]

I think militaries are more interested in wounding someone than killing them outright because a wounded soldier uses more resources. Feed reliability is also easier with FMJ's.

 

[jeremy]

I think militaries are more interested in wounding someone than killing them outright because a wounded soldier uses more resources.

Not at all but thank you for adding that BS to this discussion so early into it...

 

[ckcollins2003]

The Hague Convention is what prohibits the US from using hollow-point ammo. However NATO has signed off on the use of hollow point ammo for certain units and ops where over-penetration may do more harm. The reason it is only available for certain missions and not to all units isn't only because of armor, because 7.62 armor will easily stop a 5.56 round whether it be HP or FMJ, but because NATO sees HP rounds as "inhumane".

As jeremy stated, there is nothing that prohibits serrated blades.

To my knowledge all law enforcement personnel use hollow point ammo.

 

[windellmc]

The Hague Convention banned bullets that cause unnecessary suffering and soft points were sort of banned that way. However I just read an article that said SOCOM starting using .45 Black Talons in 1993. Hmm...I wonder if that was due to experience in Somalia.

In 1985 JAG said that .30 cal Matchking rifle bullets were ok also.

If I had to guess I would say ball ammo is still in use due to cost.

 

[IMPD31323]

Sorry but I am unaware of any police department that currently does not use hollow point ammunition. As stated above Hague convention prohibits use of hollow point ammo, however when i was an MP while state side we carried hollow points in out M9's.

 

[toddcraft33]

I think for the military it wouls have to be a cost issue. Shooting mags full of HP down range would be costly.

 

[jeremy]

The Hague Convention banned bullets that cause unnecessary suffering and soft points were sort of banned that way. However I just read an article that said SOCOM starting using .45 Black Talons in 1993. Hmm...I wonder if that was due to experience in Somalia.

I doubt it...

 

[cartmanfan15]

Gotcha. I am ok with the use of serrated knives, but my father-in-law is ex military and he was the one who mentioned it.

I figured it had something to do with hollow points being "inhumane" similar to the concepts proposed concerning torture and things like that. I have never shot hollow points in body armor or anything. My concern would be that I assumed that hollow points blossom opposed to going straight through like ball ammo may. This could just be my own lack of knowledge comparing the two. Would hollow point 9mm rounds for instance cause a large difference compared to 9mm ball ammo?

 

[jeremy]

Gotcha. I am ok with the use of serrated knives, but my father-in-law is ex military and he was the one who mentioned it.

I can say with a large amount of certainty that the US Army has NO Regulations against Serrated Knives. I can not speak for the other 3 Branches of the Military (Navy, Air Force, or Coast Guard).

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Not at all but thank you for adding that BS to this discussion so early into it...

Whatever I can do to help

 

[cswan]

I work for two LE agencies. Both use hollow points. One is 9mm the other is .40

 

[Goober135]

I've looked into this quite a bit myself. To your thought about the cost of FMJ, I highly doubt that is an issue considering how much funding our military receives. As for your thought on LEOs, most, if not all agencies use JHP in their handguns. Only the military strictly uses FMJ.

Here are some good reads for you:

Hague Convention

Geneva Convention

Although our military is not legally bound to use only FMJ in warfare, they do so out of what I would consider "courtesy" for the nations that do follow said protocol. The general consensus is that JHP causes "superfluous wounds" to their targets, which in turn causes "unnecessary suffering" or as you said, torturing enemy combatants. Also, in warfare, over-penetration is not necessarily a bad thing. Unlike the situations that an LEO would be involved in, where over-penetration could lead to an innocent bystander being hit. Most firefights in warfare usually involve fighting from behind cover, where the penetrating power of FMJ would be of more use than that of JHP.

Some would argue that FMJ does not "kill" as quickly as JHP, which leads to an increased usage of resources by the opposing side. Thus taking a higher toll on the enemy and their ability to continue fighting. A dead soldier takes up very little resources, whereas a wounded solider takes up many. This is the opinion of some, not all. Whether the military actually has ulterior motives for using only FMJ is unknown.

Others look at this from the opposite perspective. This opinion being that the military is more concerned with eliminating the ability of enemy combatants to continue fighting, rather than the ability to simply "kill". As you stated, the military does not necessarily allow the usage of serrated knives or even triangular bayonets. (although this is again out of "courtesy" rather than legality) Some say the reason behind this is the fact that these types of weapons cause excessive tissue damage and is more difficult to close the wounds they cause. This again leads to "unnecessary suffering" and lowers the chance of surviving such wounds. The same could be said for the use of JHP as it creates much more tissue damage than FMJ.

To sum things up, LEO agencies use only JHP, and for the reasons stated above, the military use only FMJ in warfare. It's now up to you to decide which side of the fence you're on, or if you're somewhere in between!

Hope this helped answer your questions!
John

 

[Goober135]

I can say with a large amount of certainty that the US Army has NO Regulations against Serrated Knives. I can not speak for the other 3 Branches of the Military (Navy, Air Force, or Coast Guard).

Correct. Although I believe this falls into the same reasoning as to why the military uses only FMJ, the usage of serrated knives is not as strictly enforced. It is the Netherlands who strictly forbid the use of serrated knives / bayonets.

 

[thoroughbred]

Really??? No serrated knives? All the guys I know in the army have them or used them.

 

[thoroughbred]

I guess if you are using a knife in a firefight though serrated or straight edge you are already having a pretty bad day.

 

[Goober135]

Really??? No serrated knives? All the guys I know in the army have them or used them.

Actually used them on an enemy in combat, or as a utility tool?

I guess if you are using a knife in a firefight though serrated or straight edge you are already having a pretty bad day.

Agreed!

As a further question for anyone with knowledge on the subject: What type of ammo do LEOs use in AR's if their department allows them to have one in their vehicle? Personal choice or is there some type of restriction?

 

[thoroughbred]

Just as a tool none of them ever said anything about using them on an enemy.