Hollow Points for Military and LEOs

[Goober135]

Just as a tool none of them ever said anything about using them on an enemy.

Alright. I'm curious to know how strictly our military follows that specific protocol of the Geneva Convention.

 

[jeremy]

Alright. I'm curious to know how strictly our military follows that specific protocol of the Geneva Convention.

Can you link me to that Section of the Geneva Convention?!
Or is it just the Fact that the Danes don't permit Serrated Blades that makes you think it is in the Convention...

 

[Goober135]

Can you link me to that Section of the Geneva Convention?!
Or is it just the Fact that the Danes don't permit Serrated Blades that makes you think it is in the Convention...

I'm fairly certain I saw something about that in there. Let me see if I can find it.

 

[HICKMAN]

Not at all but thank you for adding that BS to this discussion so early into it...

lol, "choot him in da leg!"

Nope, center mass is what I learned.

 

[jeremy]

By the way the Geneva Convention deals with Personnel. While the Hague attempts to deal with Hardware...

 

[Sylvain]

I think every law enforcement agency in the States use hollow points and have been for the last 30 years.
It must be the same thing in pretty much every country.
Police uses hollow point and military uses full metal jacket.
I dont know about every country but I know that in France the National Police and the Gendarmerie (which is a military force) both use hollow points but it's very new.
Actually until 2009 the police in France used FMJs, the same model used by the military to save costs I guess.
In 2006 a man was shot by the police (hit in the lung and didn't die), a second man, several meters behind, was hit in the heart by the same bullet and died.
In some other cases the police had officers wounded by ricochets from their own bullets.
After that they finally decided to use hollow points and bought 48 million of rounds of Speer Gold Dot JHP.
Prior to use hollow points the police sometimes had to shoot someone 5 or 6 times with their FMJs to stop the threat.

 

[sloughfoot]

All that garbage about wounding the other guy and taking two other guys out of the fight to move him back to the medics makes me gag everytime I hear it.

OUR military might operate that way, but adversaries sure don't. It is just a way to justify and excuse the poor performance of the 223/5.56 in many conditions.

Now, the M16 rifle/5.56 caliber will certainly put a person down for good, but certainly not like any of the 30 calibers.

Back to the OP, most domestic Police uses HP ammo and troops overseas use FMJ ammo. NYPD issued FMJ in the early days when they switched to the Glock. I don't know what they carry now.

Many individuals have been stopped permanently by FMJ handgun ammo

 

[Goober135]

Can you link me to that Section of the Geneva Convention?!
Or is it just the Fact that the Danes don't permit Serrated Blades that makes you think it is in the Convention...

I believe you are correct. From what I've found, neither convention specifically name serrated knives / bayonets as "banned" weapons of warfare. The only argument that I would pose is that they could potentially fall into the Geneva Convention's Provisions which "bans weapons that 'cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering'" as some would say they do just that. The only problem is that the provision is very vague and does not mention specific weapons, just weapons in general.

 

[jeremy]

I believe you are correct. From what I've found, neither convention specifically name serrated knives / bayonets as "banned" weapons of warfare. The only argument that I would pose is that they could potentially fall into the Geneva Convention's Provisions which "bans weapons that 'cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering'" as some would say they do just that. The only problem is that the provision is very vague and does not mention specific weapons, just weapons in general.

The Closest you will find is In the Hague Convention;
Section II, Chapter 1, Art 23, (e) [FONT=&quot]To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;
[/FONT]and as you noted it is, vague.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[U.S. Patriot]

All that garbage about wounding the other guy and taking two other guys out of the fight to move him back to the medics makes me gag everytime I hear it.

OUR military might operate that way, but adversaries sure don't. It is just a way to justify and excuse the poor performance of the 223/5.56 in many conditions.

Now, the M16 rifle/5.56 caliber will certainly put a person down for good, but certainly not like any of the 30 calibers.

Back to the OP, most domestic Police uses HP ammo and troops overseas use FMJ ammo. NYPD issued FMJ in the early days when they switched to the Glock. I don't know what they carry now.

Many individuals have been stopped permanently by FMJ handgun ammo

Have you ever shot someone with a 5.56/.223 round, just curious? You have to consider one factor, weight. Compare the weight of a Marines kit during WWII to our current conflict. Not to mention they did not wear body armor at that time either. From what I can find online, the current issued vest fully equiped weighs just over 30 lbs. Imagine if they had to pack a full combat load of .308 as well, compared to 5.56. It's not always cut and dry.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

In the Coast Guard we could carry a serrated knife. When I was in, we carried a 92FS loaded with NATO 9mm. Shortly after I was discharged, they started issuing Sig 228's in .40 loaded with JHP's. Even though the Coast Guard is a branch of the Military, and is held to the same rules/laws as said conventions.

 

[sloughfoot]

Have you ever shot someone with a 5.56/.223 round, just curious? You have to consider one factor, weight. Compare the weight of a Marines kit during WWII to our current conflict. Not to mention they did not wear body armor at that time either. From what I can find online, the current issued vest fully equiped weighs just over 30 lbs. Imagine if they had to pack a full combat load of .308 as well, compared to 5.56. It's not always cut and dry.

No sir, I have not. I have witnessed a police action shooting at 25 yards with a short barreled AR with 52 grain match bullets. It about took the guys arm clean off. An instant stop. He was in no condition to continue his behavior.

There is no question in my mind that the 5.56 can be an effective round.

The "Black Hawk Down" troops told many stories about the M855 behaving like an ice pick and just not stopping the drugged up Somalies even after multiple hits.

I just resist the notion that our adversaries have the same interest in taking care of their wounded that our military does. The notion that a wounding round is more effective than a killing wound smacks of compensating and explaining the weakness of a varmint round.

You are absolutely correct, nothing is absolute or cut and dried. I just wish the bean counting weenies would be honest about the failings and positives about the 5.56. Don't feed me crap about one wounded and two to move him back. True in the Marines or US Army, not so true in an insurgency or Somalia type engagement.

I was issued a M16 in 1970.

 

[Goober135]

The Closest you will find is In the Hague Convention;
Section II, Chapter 1, Art 23, (e) [FONT=&quot]To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;
[/FONT]and as you noted it is, vague.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

I wonder why that is. How is one supposed to determine what weapons cause "unnecessary suffering" and which do not? For instance, if JHP are banned because they cause superfluous wounds & unnecessary suffering in comparison to FMJ, wouldn't a serrated knife fall into the same category as JHP when compared to a standard knife? Both JHP and serrated knives are not needed to increase the probability of killing or disabling an individual. So why ban one and include specific details as to why, but not even mention the other?

 

[U.S. Patriot]

No sir, I have not. I have witnessed a police action shooting at 25 yards with a short barreled AR with 52 grain match bullets. It about took the guys arm clean off. An instant stop. He was in no condition to continue his behavior.

There is no question in my mind that the 5.56 can be an effective round.

The "Black Hawk Down" troops told many stories about the M855 behaving like an ice pick and just not stopping the drugged up Somali's even after multiple hits.

I just resist the notion that our adversaries have the same interest in taking care of their wounded that our military does. The notion that a wounding round is more effective than a killing wound smacks of compensating and explaining the weakness of a varmint round.

You are absolutely correct, nothing is absolute or cut and dried. I just wish the bean counting weenies would be honest about the failings and positives about the 5.56. Don't feed me crap about one wounded and two to move him back. True in the Marines or US Army, not so true in an insurgency or Somalia type engagement.

I was issued a M16 in 1970.

I agree that the whole wounding BS is silly. I also know that drugs affect the outcome tremendously. Troops in Vietnam faced the same problem with doped up Vietnamese close range with their 1911's. Even with a .30 caliber cartridge there are no guarantees. I saw a video of a guy that was doped up on PCP get pepper sprayed and beat by two cops for quit some time before he finally gave up. I saw it, (pepper spray) turn Men into babies when they had no drugs circulating through their blood.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I wonder why that is. How is one supposed to determine what weapons cause "unnecessary suffering" and which do not? For instance, if JHP are banned because they cause superfluous wounds & unnecessary suffering in comparison to FMJ, wouldn't a serrated knife fall into the same category as JHP when compared to a standard knife? Both JHP and serrated knives are not needed to increase the probability of killing or disabling an individual. So why ban one and include specific details as to why, but not even mention the other?

Serrated knives are better for cutting line, limbs, etc. As a sharp straight edge blade will do more damage with less effort. Where as a Tonto style blade was designed for stabbing.

 

[Spyke05]

Military is a no go due to being considered inhumane Leos all Carry hp's no regs on knives

 

[rugertoter]

So, my wife asked me the other day an interesting question that I never really thought a whole lot about. Maybe some of the military or former military and LEOs or anyone who might know can chime in. My wife asked why the Military and LEOs don't use hollow point rounds in the handguns they carry. One thing I thought of was the cost, but I have also heard as well about ideas proposed by the Geneva Convention concerning torturing prisoners and now that military knives are not allowed to have serrated edges on them. Maybe this has something to do with it? Any input would be most appreciated.

The military is not supposed to use JHP ammo due to it is against rules of land warfare.

 

[Tactical Flannel]

<P>

As a further question for anyone with knowledge on the subject: What type of ammo do LEOs use in AR's if their department allows them to have one in their vehicle? Personal choice or is there some type of restriction?

The ammo used in any LEO handgun, rifle or shotgun is dependent on that individual agencys policy. Very few Indiana agencies use the same make and model of ammo, even when using identical weapon platforms.
Also LEO knives are dealt with in the same way. Dependent on an individual agencies policy (or lack there of).

Stay safe

 

[Destro]

the us military uses the mk262 and mk318 rounds, both of these are HP rounds

 

[in625shooter]

the USAF has issued hollow points for several years now. I retired from the ANG as a career Security Forces troop. Since the late 1990's the USAF and ANG has been issuing 9mm hollow point ammunition for all or most state side (CONOS) bases for their Security Forces (former Sec urity Police). The reason was in the late 1980's thruogh the 1990's the USAF had several police shootings on their bases. While the NATO ball was effective the leadership decided they wanted to increase the odds so they got with USAF JAG. JAG decided that state side Security Forces was in more of a domestic Law Enforcment role on their bases and would not be in violation of the hauge treaty. Theng the green light for the hollow points was given for stateside. they still issue ball for the M4/16 and all M249's/240's GPMG and when you go overseas (OCONUS) you revert back to all ball ammo.