hollow points....is there a point?

[jgreiner]

ive been doing my research lately...and alot if what ive been hearing in regards to pistol cartridges and their ability to incapacitate says that common pistol calibers (9, .40, .45) are all lacking in stopping power (which i already knew) however...for years ive been paying big bucks for hollow point bullets for the sake of trying to compensate for what the caliber lacks (.45 acp for me).....but in the past week or two ive been wondering....if pistol cartridges dont break up like a hi power rifle bullet, and "hydra-static shock" is of little relevance, and optimal penetration is key in hitting and destroying vital organs, why use hollow points over fmj? dont hollow points actually lessen the penetration of the projectile as it enters its target....have i been paying out the A$$ for bullets that will only create large shallow wounds and risk not penetrating all the way to heart or spine? any thoughts, opinions, or expert advise would be appreciated.

OVER penetration can get neighbors, innocent bystanders killed. Something to think about.

 

[LPMan59]

Virtualy every soldier who has died in combat from bullet wounds since the advent of smokless powder has been killed by fmj ammo, it's ability to kill cannot be questioned. Hand held combat weapons are all designed for fmj.

Jacketed hp for self defense on the street are fine for all the reasons listed, would I want them in a combat situation, absolutely not.

you do know that the only reason professional armies today dont use JHPs is because of the Hague Convention right?

 

[ATOMonkey]

you do know that the only reason professional armies today dont use JHPs is because of the Hague Convention right?

+1

Miltary strategy also says a wounded soldier requires more resources to care for than a dead one. Another reason FMJ is used.

 

[dom1104]

I would like to point out, that 9 out of 10 people I meet who say they "carry a gun" or "CCW", if you ask them if they are carrying it at the moment say "well.. ..no", or "Its too HEEEEAVY".

This makes this subject very academic. If your gun stays in the drawer it doesnt matter much does it?

However, if you are truly serious about defending your life and the lives of your family, you will NOT be using WWB for ANYTHING other than practice.

You will put in the time it takes to equip yourself and to practice, and to train, with the BEST.

THE BEST.

Not "good enough" or "almost as good as" or "the army uses" or "well its cheaper"....

THE BEST.

Anyone who says "All handgun cartridges suck so it doesnt really matter what you load in them" is

A: not a student of the gun.
B: not truly interested in depending on his skill with the gun and defending his life with it.
C: does not truly perceive a threat to his life, and is a enthusiast rather than a potential gunfighter. a "Sunday morning CCW internet forum guy".

None of these options are a wrong way to be.

But if you truly think, that your life might depend on you, your gun, and your skill with that gun....

You are going to stack the deck in your favor. And you FIND the best, 100% reliable, deadliest gun and ammo combination you can find.

You go thru the effort. You spend the money.

Because your life matters to you.

That is all. /rant off.

 

[iChokePeople]

^^ Nice rant.

 

[armedindy]

Sometimes I really wonder about people on this forum...


STOP "researching" on the internet. The BS to truth ratio is 10 to 1.

Test things yourself. Go shoot something, alive, with fmj, and then shoot another one, in the same place, with HP.

And then do it over and over again.

And then have a huge barbeque for all your friends. And make a lot of jerky.

All handgun calibers do NOT suck, they in fact kill things pretty darned well. I know that is not a "in vogue" thing to say...on the internet.

Sheesh.

Kids these days and thinking the internet is the source of all wisdom...

jesus h christ...i was just asking some simple questions because of some things i had read (and now people are mad at me for reading)...i really like ^ though...i dont think reading on an internet forum is going to satisfy my curiosity....looks like a trip to the butcher and good will is in my future...honestly...i could kill a man with my bare hands...but itd be harder if i was wearing boxing gloves.... i know any gun with any ammo will kill, im no expert. i dont have the bank of knowledge that some of you do (i also dont have the pretentious attitude that some have but w.e.) but all in all, thanks for the responses, looks like im gonna stick to my alternating ammo mags.

 

[Sylvain]

I heard many soldiers saying that they wish they could use hollow points in their handguns.
They know that if they ever get in a close quarter combat situation where they need to use their 9mm handgun, that a few rounds of hollow points would stop the attacker quicker than a few rounds of FMJs.
And if FMJs were the best, why would those soldiers use hollow points when they get back to civilian life?

 

[armedindy]

I would like to point out, that 9 out of 10 people I meet who say they "carry a gun" or "CCW", if you ask them if they are carrying it at the moment say "well.. ..no", or "Its too HEEEEAVY".

This makes this subject very academic. If your gun stays in the drawer it doesnt matter much does it?

However, if you are truly serious about defending your life and the lives of your family, you will NOT be using WWB for ANYTHING other than practice.

You will put in the time it takes to equip yourself and to practice, and to train, with the BEST.

THE BEST.

Not "good enough" or "almost as good as" or "the army uses" or "well its cheaper"....

THE BEST.

Anyone who says "All handgun cartridges suck so it doesnt really matter what you load in them" is

A: not a student of the gun.
B: not truly interested in depending on his skill with the gun and defending his life with it.
C: does not truly perceive a threat to his life, and is a enthusiast rather than a potential gunfighter. a "Sunday morning CCW internet forum guy".

None of these options are a wrong way to be.

But if you truly think, that your life might depend on you, your gun, and your skill with that gun....

You are going to stack the deck in your favor. And you FIND the best, 100% reliable, deadliest gun and ammo combination you can find.

You go thru the effort. You spend the money.

Because your life matters to you.

That is all. /rant off.

i agree with you 100% sir.....however, women often take self defense course that teach them serious and harmful maneuvers and skills and they arent 100% dedicated.....it doesnt take a black belt in jiu-jitsu to use a wrist lock to save their ass in the alley....im just sayin some gun with whatever ammo is better than nothing at all when it boils down to that moment when your life is on the line....

 

[singlestacksig]

I heard many soldiers saying that they wish they could use hollow points in their handguns.
They know that if they ever get in a close quarter combat situation where they need to use their 9mm handgun, that a few rounds of hollow points would stop the attacker quicker than a few rounds of FMJs.
And if FMJs were the best, why would those soldiers use hollow points when they get back to civilian life?

In many conflict HP & SP were used.. SP ammo was common before WWI .
and in many cases where one side was "police" or other non regular army HP rounds were used..

In Bosnia it was common for solders ( NON NATO) to cut the tips off the FMJ rounds to make SP ammo..
One of my groomsmen is from Bosnia and he tells stories of hearing the whistle of cut bullets fired from snipers..

 

[dom1104]

i agree with you 100% sir.....however, women often take self defense course that teach them serious and harmful maneuvers and skills and they arent 100% dedicated.....it doesnt take a black belt in jiu-jitsu to use a wrist lock to save their ass in the alley....im just sayin some gun with whatever ammo is better than nothing at all when it boils down to that moment when your life is on the line....

And half an old bologna sandwich is better than nothing to save a starving mans life.....

 

[U.S. Patriot]

1. FMJ rounds can and will over penetrate. Not a good thing when there are others around and you actualy have to use your sidearm in SD. 2. Hollow points mushroom slowing the round yes, but it transfers more energy into the body. It also makes a somewhat larger temporary wound cavity. Handgun rounds are not the best choice for SD, but who is going to pack a rifle or shotgun around?

 

[armedindy]

And half an old bologna sandwich is better than nothing to save a starving mans life.....

exactly lol (whatever)

 

[60Driver]

There is MUCH wisdom in some of the above posts! I would definately take the time to read what NIFT suggested and would also listen to PHYLODOG, the man speaks from experience.

From the military perspective a sidearm is a SECONDARY weapon system, its purpose (with a few specialized exceptions) is to fight your way to a superior weapons platform, or serve as a backup. FMJ is issued due to outdated conventions. I assure you that most troops would prefer a quality modern bonded JHP loading for a defensive pistol.

Now as civillians if we exercise the god given right to defend ourself, I would argue that we bare the RESPONSIBILITY to due so in a prudent and professional manner. This primarily means TRAINING but also applies to equipment. God forbid someone has to defend themself and ends up putting a round through thier intended target into an innocent, me , you, your family. THIS is why LE issues JHPs and why they TEST the living @#% out of them.

PLEASE read the test documents on the following link (Warning BIG files):

LE - Wound Ballistics

Some interesting facts are revealed, among them a modern JHP if clogged by dry board, heavy clothing , auto glass etc typically will penetrate MORE, somewhat negating the "winter carry FMJ ammo" or engaging BG behind concealment argument. Also some interesting data on 5.56 performance for my fellow AR shooters.

For what its worth I carry Federal HST in 230 45 or 124+p 9mm, Based on reliabilty in my platforms and the above testing, though any of Dr. Roberts loadings would be fine in my mind.

 

[nailknocker]

I understand the Hague convention, but in combat I want penetration, in spite of what the movies tell us you cannot hide behind a two by four wall. Rail road ties with lotsa sand bags would be a good start

 

[.452browning]

I understand the Hague convention, but in combat I want penetration, in spite of what the movies tell us you cannot hide behind a two by four wall. Rail road ties with lotsa sand bags would be a good start

It's just like how your not supposed to shoot enemy personel with a .50BMG

It's supposed to be anti-material so you have to aim for their shirt. That way you destroyed their shirt and they just happened to be in the way.


And last I heard your not supposed to shoot an airborne soldier until he hits the ground. Gives him a fighting chance

 

[singlestacksig]

It's just like how your not supposed to shoot enemy personel with a .50BMG

It's supposed to be anti-material so you have to aim for their shirt. That way you destroyed their shirt and they just happened to be in the way.


And last I heard your not supposed to shoot an airborne soldier until he hits the ground. Gives him a fighting chance

you can shoot at the equipment...

 

[mrortega]

9mm round is .357. When it expands to .625 or .700 it not only increases its frontal area but also dumps most of its energy in the target due to the greater area. You want the maximum energy dump in the target, so mission accomplished.

 

[iChokePeople]

It's just like how your not supposed to shoot enemy personel with a .50BMG

It's supposed to be anti-material so you have to aim for their shirt. That way you destroyed their shirt and they just happened to be in the way.


And last I heard your not supposed to shoot an airborne soldier until he hits the ground. Gives him a fighting chance

Two myths. .50 is fine against personnel, and you can shoot "airborne" troops all day long. ETA: Or until you run out of either ammo or airborne troops.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I understand the Hague convention, but in combat I want penetration, in spite of what the movies tell us you cannot hide behind a two by four wall. Rail road ties with lotsa sand bags would be a good start

That is what HE is for.

Small arms are only useful for getting the enemy to be still.

If you find him in the open where small arms are effective, I would recommend a round that would kill rather than maim, since we don't fight conventional wars any longer.

 

[NIFT]

9mm round is .357. When it expands to .625 or .700 it not only increases its frontal area but also dumps most of its energy in the target due to the greater area. You want the maximum energy dump in the target, so mission accomplished.

Kinetic energy is not a wounding mechanism and is an exceedingly poor proxy for the effectiveness of a cartridge/load/bullet.

Consider the following:
1. A hard punch by an athletic woman to the quadricep muscles.
2. A .22 short fired into quadricep muscles with no exit wound.
3. A 500 grain broadhead hunting arrow fired into quadricep muscles at 200 fps with the arrow staying in the leg.
4. A razor-sharp, large butcher knife used to cut across quadricep muscles.

Which "deposits" the most kinetic energy? The hard punch by the athletic woman "deposits" the most kinetic energy by far.

The razor-sharp butcher knife "deposits" the least kinetic energy by far, and the .22 short has over 50% more kinetic energy than the broadhead arrow.

Now, which does the most damage?
The punch with, by far, the largest "energy dump" does the least damage. Might be a bruise and a little soreness, but that's it

The razor-sharp butcher knife does, by far, the most damage but with minuscule "energy dump," and the broadhead arrow does much more damage than the lowly .22 short with slightly over half the kinetic energy.

Strongly suggest reading up on terminal ballistics and the reasons why kinetic energy "deposit" is both not a wounding mechanism and an exceedingly poor proxy for such.