Horrific Incident, Georgia

[Kirk Freeman]

Just received word that a friend's son had a fatal ND with his duty weapon in Georgia.

Came home, withdrew magazine, left round in chamber, pointed gun at his own head and pulled trigger to show wife it was "clear".

Why people feel the necessity to point guns at themselves (coonfingering or deliberately) is beyond me. I do not understand why some fight the Four Rules so vigorously. The gun is always loaded and never clear. Why this is hard, I do not understand.

Guns only got one job. I grieve for my friend. USF vet, firefighter, always helped me with medical certs/training with service. I am ill for him.

 

[SSE]

Horrific indeed, that poor woman.

 

[nucular]

Not questioning the facts but it seems inconceivable to me that someone would do that.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Sad.

 

[Bassat]

I am so sorry for all involved. Tragic.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I obviously know nothing about this incident.

Historically, a fairly significant number of LE "accidental deaths" via "gun cleaning accidents" are for the niceties of life insurance. Not so much these days, but it wasn't unheard of to have a gun cleaning kit in the trunk of a detective's car.

Regardless, I'm truly sorry for your friend's family, the officer, and his friends. Been through a few peer suicides and it sucks ass.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Not questioning the facts but it seems inconceivable to me that someone would do that.

Not inconceivable. It happens because of the persistence of "it ain't loaded". Just search INGO.

Perhaps not regularly but happens with cops and non-cops (not picking on cops).
Just look at how guns are handled at gun shows or what not. They will point guns at themselves and the world and then get mad when their reckless behavior is pointed out.

Watch how they put fingers over muzzles or aim gun at hand and then pull trigger. Perhaps such stupidity is too ingrained in humanity to eliminate?

Look how mad they get at me for pointing it out or pointing out that firearms can discharge without fingers on triggers.

But we can learn from this tragedy. Don't do stupid stuff like point guns at people, that includes you.

Rookie cop who killed himself removed clip, left bullet in chamber

Rookie cop who killed himself removed clip, left bullet in chamber

www.sfgate.com

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I obviously know nothing about this incident.

Historically, a fairly significant number of LE "accidental deaths" via "gun cleaning accidents" are for the niceties of life insurance. Not so much these days, but it wasn't unheard of to have a gun cleaning kit in the trunk of a detective's car.

Regardless, I'm truly sorry for your friend's family, the officer, and his friends. Been through a few peer suicides and it sucks ass.

Thank you. He is a fine man and very giving of his time.

After my surgery in March he even let me hang out at the firehouse near me.

Such horrific tragedy, utterly feckless, but we can learn from it.

 

[wtburnette]

Prayers for the friends and family

 

[ECS686]

First hope his family can get through this. Sad sad story.

Ignorance or carelessness are the 2 reasons these happen in that order.

In carelessness people that get bit are the ones who treat guns like they are loaded until they think they are not then throwing rule 1 out the window!

How many times (usually at a gun store/show) have you’ve seen someone Muzzle sweep or put their finger on the trigger quip “oh it isn’t loaded” when someone try’s to correct them?

Like if they do that in front of anyone what do you do when nobody is watching???

 

[NHT3]

It's always loaded seems to be a concept that some refuse to grasp. Prayers for your friend.

 

[MrSmitty]

Sorry to hear about your friend. I've heard that a lot of accidents were caused by Glock guns, since part of the takedown procedure included pulling the trigger before takedown....

 

[ECS686]

Sorry to hear about your friend. I've heard that a lot of accidents were caused by Glock guns, since part of the takedown procedure included pulling the trigger before takedown....

The term phrase “muzzle in a safe direction” that safe direction part apparently is t driven home.

I observe countless “gun savy” folks sweep their off hand when admin handiling a handgun at a range both. Sweeping their off hand when unloading/loading especially the master Jedis trying to look cool using either front slide serrations or trying to catch the ejected round.

You see unsafe people and they don’t even know they are unsafe!

 

[cbhausen]

It's always loaded seems to be a concept that some refuse to grasp. Prayers for your friend.

I refuse to grasp “it’s always loaded” without apology. Because it isn’t.

I instead grasp the concept “it’s always a firearm” and as long as it’s a firearm (i.e.: intact and operational) keep it pointed in a safe direction.

Whether it’s loaded or not has NOTHING to do with how to handle firearms.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Respectfully, this isn't the thread for gun safety protocols/mindset IMO. We've got plenty of those already. Maybe let Kirk have this one be about his friend and leave it at that.

 

[cbhausen]

Respectfully, this isn't the thread for gun safety protocols/mindset IMO. We've got plenty of those already. Maybe let Kirk have this one be about his friend and leave it at that.

Having met both you and Kirk in the real, I have great respect for both of you and I do not think anyone here is trying to crap on Kirk’s post. I’m certainly not.

Kirk himself and others have mentioned learning from this tragedy which I interpret as an opportunity to discuss safe firearms handling.

We MUST teach better.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We MUST teach better.

No question.

My concern is that people will do foolish things with "unloaded" firearms. I just don't know how to more effectively teach this concept.

SHOT, NRAAM, gun shows, gun shops, they all point guns at themselves or others. And if you call them on their stupidity, it is always "eet ain't low-dead".

How to break this behavior?

 

[MindfulMan]

I'm very sorry to hear of this terrible incident, Mr. Freeman.
May you and his family find comfort.

 

[cbhausen]

No question.

My concern is that people will do foolish things with "unloaded" firearms. I just don't know how to more effectively teach this concept.

SHOT, NRAAM, gun shows, gun shops, they all points guns at themselves or others. How to break this?

You asked, my friend. So I shall answer with an example: my own 7-year old twins.

They both know Eddie Eagle and the rule set I teach (3 instead of 4). These rules all begin with “Always…”, not “Never…”. Educators will tell you this is the best way to teach procedures. Say what you want the behavior to be, not what not to do.

If they break a rule, even with a nerf gun (unless we are having a nerf war with PPE on) I correct their behavior. I can correct their behavior because I can observe it and show them what they did to break that rule.

Nowhere in this does loaded vs. unloaded come into play. Because it’s a gun handle it as such. No exceptions, ever.

I firmly believe down to my core NRA has it right here. And I was taught 4 rules by my late father. And I firmly believe “I didn’t think it was loaded” comes from the subconscious thought the older set of 4 rules implies (for too many folks anyway) we can safely handle unloaded guns differently than loaded guns.

We can’t stop human beings from doing foolish, reckless things. All we can do is teach to the best of our ability and the rest is up to the individual.

I’m sorry for your loss, Kirk.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It's always loaded seems to be a concept that some refuse to grasp. Prayers for your friend.

And will actively fight you over.

When Jeff Cooper was codifying the Four Rules, there was only the first one. Students were "yee-hawing" (Clint Smith's term, the then Operations Manager at API [later Gunsite]) the guns around, the other 3 were added to bolster the 1st one.

You can explain the Four Rules, but people will fight you for teaching them. Men learn by seeing, what can be done with that to eliminate this kind of behavior?