Indiana deer rifle wildcats - the end of an era?

[BeDome]

Truth be told, if you hunt deer where they live, you'll not only be more successful, but you won't need a long-range gun to make a good shot on them. At the same time, there hasn't been a good reason NOT to allow real rifles for a long time, so I'll be glad to have more options. I may just use my grandpa's old 30/30, or perhaps my other grandpa's 32 Winchester Special.

I grew up outside of Abilene, Texas. Marrying the treasure of my life, who I found living in Indiana, brought me here.

Finding that most of my hunting weapons were illegal kind of pissed me off, twenty five years ago, when I first came here.

Going after antelope and very skittish deer, as my grandfather taught me, is a prospect that demands a shooter capable of making a 3oo to 5oo yard shot, fairly quickly. Growing up expecting this is how it is meant to be, Indiana hunting seemed like a burden to me. Why can't I just go out with my bucket of corn and choose one to take with my pistol, instead of petting it today?

I went out with a Bro-in-law once, using a bow, but I am just not an arrow guy. Give me a real rifle and we can talk. While I admit that the sport was something to be reckoned with, we did not put meat on the table the first time out. Kind of a pisser to me.

I always look forward to new freedoms!

 

[10mmfan]

The wildcats have sure been interesting but I think hunting with real rifle rounds is a positive thing since I have had to watch deer through my scope that were out of my range with my Marlin .44 mag or my .458 socom AR. Those animals would have been in the freezer if I had my Remington 788 in .243. I even used a encore pistol in .308 but I was not a good shot with that but I still have that gun. If the DNR is gonna allow real rifle cartridges to be shot out of handguns like the encore surely a rifle shooting the same cartridges should be safer because I think most people shoot rifles better than handguns.

 

[tenring]

Lot of "real rifle" enthusiasts here, but just what is the definition of a "real rifle" ?

 

[Yeah]

One not subject to arbitrary limits set by bureaucrats?

 

[BeDome]

One not subject to arbitrary limits set by bureaucrats?

Arbitrary, indeed.

I would have to agree.

When I first moved here, all my hunting rifles were not allowed. Yes, I bought a slug barrel for my Remington shotgun, but (did not enjoy hunting anymore) I rarely saw a deer I could not take with a small knife. Not quite the same as hunting.

Things have to be better.

 

[Broom_jm]

Lot of "real rifle" enthusiasts here, but just what is the definition of a "real rifle" ?

I'll take a swing at this one: For anyone who grew up outside of a shotgun/muzzle-loader state, a "real rifle" is one that shoots a cartridge capable of much flatter trajectory, while still creating less recoil. For those of us who have spent time out west, it means a bolt-action rifle, usually a Model 70, Model 700, M77, M110, etc. For many other folks, a real rifle is a lever-action, pump, semi-auto or single-shot, but not restricted by excessive nomenclature, such that they can fire a range of "real cartridges". In general, said cartridges are of the Coke-bottle form, including the families of necked cartridges spawned by the 30-'06 and 308, or perhaps those exact cartridges, themselves. They also include the "magnums", belted and otherwise, which rattle our brains nearly as much as a slug gun, but stretch effective range even further, and/or deliver enough power to harvest the larger deer species. On the other end of the spectrum are the milder options, like 250 Savage, 243 Winchester, 257 Roberts, 260 Remington; gentle on the shoulder but still plenty effective when it comes to terminal performance.

Then you have the oldies but goodies, currently disallowed by Indiana rule, despite adhering largely to the spirit of the current laws. Rounds like the 30/30, 35 Remington, 38/55, 300 Savage, 358 Winchester, 45/70, and even the powerhouse 35 Whelen all meet the definition of medium-range cartridges that the Indiana regs clearly are meant to establish. There are undoubtedly countless others, but at 5:15 of a morning, many of them have slipped my memory.

The point is, rifles are meant to carry far better than, shoot a bit farther than, and recoil noticeably less than...a slug gun. In virtually all aspects, save over-kill at short to medium-short ranges, a "real rifle" is a superior deer hunting tool. Maybe that helps you grasp the vision, and maybe it doesn't, but if'n you ever get your hands on a real rifle, and are privileged to harvest a deer with it at 250+, it will all become very clear.

 

[ghuns]

The wildcats have sure been interesting but I think hunting with real rifle rounds is a positive thing since I have had to watch deer through my scope that were out of my range with my Marlin .44 mag or my .458 socom AR. Those animals would have been in the freezer if I had my Remington 788 in .243.

I have watched plenty of deer through the scope on my .458, and let plenty keep walkin. For me, the 250ish yard range of my SOCOM is all I am really good for in a hunting situation.

I think many people will get all giddy about breaking out the -06 or the .270 and underestimate how "easy" 200+ yard shots are to make, even on a deer sized target. Sure, some people can just do it, but most people need practice. And of the few that actually practice, most will wander out on a warm, sunny fall day, place the gun on a stable rest and say, I'm good to 300 yards.

When that 10 pointer walks out at 300 yards on a November day and they're freezing their nuts off, the adrenalin kicks in and there is no rest to be found that resembles their comfy shooting bench back home, they'll miss. I just hope they miss low.

Like good ole Dirty Harry said...

[video=youtube_share;_VrFV5r8cs0]http://youtu.be/_VrFV5r8cs0[/video]

 

[Saw46071]

I want to see what my 250 savage ( developed as a deer round ) will do for my freezer . I use it once and a while for squackers . Awsome . I think this will be a more humane kill for the animals we love to eat . The impact on the vital organs will be better . I'm pro high power rifle ! I hope it passes . My boys are not as Likely to get a good shot from a shot gun that is heavy and loud with a nice kick . They shoot the 243 alot . With good x ring kills . Shot gun well they r on the paper . I really hope this passes .

 

[Crossbow]

I went out with a Bro-in-law once, using a bow, but I am just not an arrow guy. ..... While I admit that the sport was something to be reckoned with, we did not put meat on the table the first time out. Kind of a pisser to me.

....... but (did not enjoy hunting anymore) I rarely saw a deer I could not take with a small knife. Not quite the same as hunting.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. You can't get a deer with a bow, but you can get one with a small knife?
Sounds like you need more practice with a bow or maybe I need more practice with my small knife!

 

[BigMoose]

The only thing that bothers me, is this seems to acidently open the door for a couple cartridges that are on the razor edge for killing a deer.

30 carbine. Many states have had to add this specifically to banned lists. It's extremely marginal on deer. but because of its weird status would otherwise fall as legal.

7. 62 tokarev, less common for hunting, but unless specifically banned, it could be used, despite its totaly inadequate performance

32 20 win and 25 20 win, not common but totaly inadequate

 

[kludge]

just to stir the pot...

Not that I think it should be used, but the .30 Carbine from a rifle at 100 yards has roughly the same energy as a 4" .357 Mag at the muzzle (which is legal). Not that muzzle energy is the best measure to use when comparing cartridges, but I'd much rather have a .30 Carbine to hunt deer than a .410 slug (which is legal) and those are closer comparisons. Not to mention accuracy... I can easily hold 2" groups at 50 yards with the .30 Carbine... good luck with a .410 slug, smooth bore, and a single bead sight.

If you're going to disallow the .30 Carbine then it only makes sense to disallow the .410 too.

 

[Broom_jm]

My dad harvested a small blacktail buck in CA with a 30 Carbine one year. After tracking it over 300 yards, most of it downhill, he decided he wouldn't ever do that again.

The 30 Carbine and 410 may have similar energy numbers, but at 50 yards the weight of the slug is much more likely to penetrate and kill a deer effectively.

 

[NKBJ]

I grew up looking at the bucks head on the wall that Mom brought home with a 32-20. But hey, she was raised by a WWI sniper.

The whole subject of the deer hunting cartridge regs gives me a grin. It's fun to see inventiveness walk around such.

 

[ScouT6a]

"End of an era" Don't know if I would call something that is a c few years old an "era".

 

[Broom_jm]

"End of an era" Don't know if I would call something that is a c few years old an "era".

The original PCR regulations went into effect for the 2007-2008 season, which led to quite a few interesting wildcats being created. If the regulations change again, for the 2015-2016 season, that's 8 full years of various 'cats running around. In the world of sports, 8 years is plenty of time to be called an era.

 

[ScouT6a]

I do love the motivations behind wildcatters and there have been some really cool ones since people have been reloading metallic cartridges.
Indiana's deer regulations just gave guys a reason to try to build a better mouse trap.

 

[BeDome]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. You can't get a deer with a bow, but you can get one with a small knife?
Sounds like you need more practice with a bow or maybe I need more practice with my small knife!

It was not a crossbow, but a kind of compound bow I had never even used much before. I never even tried a shot at a deer, even though I had hit hay bales at well over 100 yards playing with the thing a few times, under his guidance.

As far as the small knife comment, it was a kind of off color joke about how incredibly "tame" most of the deer I see locally seem to be. Feed them with one hand and ... well you know what I am thinking.

 

[kludge]

The 30 Carbine and 410 may have similar energy numbers, but at 50 yards the weight of the slug is much more likely to penetrate and kill a deer effectively.

What weight is that? .30 Carbine is heavier and faster. ~25% heavier that the 1/5 oz slug, and 200fps faster than the 1/4 oz slug.

.30 Carbine = 110 gr @ 2000fps (Hornady FTX spec)
.410 = 87.5 gr (1/5 oz) @ 1830fps or 109.4 gr (1/4 oz) @ 1800fps (Winchester Super X specs) or 1500fps/1755fps (Brenneke 2-3/4",3"spec)

Again, I don't think the .30 carbine should be used, but if you're going to say the .30 Carbine should not be allowed then you should also disallow the .410 slug.

IMHO.

ETA: and I know what I'm going to hit at 50 yards with the .30 Carbine (within an inch)... not so much with a .410 slug. I have both and if I had to choose between the two it's a no-brainer.

 

[Broom_jm]

What weight is that? .30 Carbine is heavier and faster. ~25% heavier that the 1/5 oz slug, and 200fps faster than the 1/4 oz slug.

.30 Carbine = 110 gr @ 2000fps (Hornady FTX spec)
.410 = 87.5 gr (1/5 oz) @ 1830fps or 109.4 gr (1/4 oz) @ 1800fps (Winchester Super X specs) or 1500fps/1755fps (Brenneke 2-3/4",3"spec)

Again, I don't think the .30 carbine should be used, but if you're going to say the .30 Carbine should not be allowed then you should also disallow the .410 slug.

IMHO.

ETA: and I know what I'm going to hit at 50 yards with the .30 Carbine (within an inch)... not so much with a .410 slug. I have both and if I had to choose between the two it's a no-brainer.

Mea Culpa: I did not realize 410 slugs were so light!

I would not choose either option for deer hunting, even for a youth. Presuming the new regulations go into effect for the 2015 year, there will be plenty of legal cartridges that are effective for deer hunting while not creating heavy recoil that would be difficult for a woman or young hunter to tolerate.

 

[Yeah]

Indiana's deer regulations just gave guys a reason to try to build a better mouse trap.

Every mousetrap devised to skirt the regulatory wanderings of the INDNR compared poorly with a great many commonly available off the shelf alternatives in use in almost every other state in the union.