Is it even worth doing a trust anymore?

[KJQ6945]

IANAL: The trust can have anything on it, not just NFA items. I understand the flaw inherent to it since there's no checks and balances over who is added after the fact, but that doesn't automatically give the ATF power over the trust. Pertaining to the members, my trust is bound by the conditions set forth within the trust. It is a legally binding document that the ATF can't just change. However, they can change the rule that all members of the trust must submit for new approvals. For mine, changing the members is an amendment. The ATF reviewer can see if I routinely remove and add members for the purposes of approvals.

I also just watched a video from MAC stating all his NFA items were done as an individual. I assume he's got quite a collection at this point, so when he passes, the value of that collection is lost to his heirs unless they want to pay $200 per item. This whole transfer tax is a racket.

Any items owned individually can transfer to your heirs tax free on a form 5, after your death.

 

[Psode27]

RVB has it right. FYI - it's a tax free transfer on a Form 5.

How does this work exactly? For my items not on my trust, will my kid/wife whatever call the atf and explain that I died, and they will transfer ownership at no cost? Must the items be in a will or something stating who they should go to? I just want to make sure I understand... Thanks.

 

[M67]

How does this work exactly? For my items not on my trust, will my kid/wife whatever call the atf and explain that I died, and they will transfer ownership at no cost? Must the items be in a will or something stating who they should go to? I just want to make sure I understand... Thanks.

Blood relatives only

The executor or executrix (spouse, lawyer) signs off on the paper, but lists your (transferee info) up top. Usually a death certificate goes with the form 5 and only blood relatives apply to the tax tree form 5. No son in laws, daughter in laws, etc., they have to be blood



As for the comment on the previous page about trusts and having a 2 year "grace period" where you can file with no additional pics or fingerprint cards after your first post 41F submission, I thought fingerprint cards and pics were required for each transaction after 41F, regardless of submittal time

 

[RobbyMaQ]

Blood relatives only

The executor or executrix (spouse, lawyer) signs off on the paper, but lists your (transferee info) up top. Usually a death certificate goes with the form 5 and only blood relatives apply to the tax tree form 5. No son in laws, daughter in laws, etc., they have to be blood



As for the comment on the previous page about trusts and having a 2 year "grace period" where you can file with no additional pics or fingerprint cards after your first post 41F submission, I thought fingerprint cards and pics were required for each transaction after 41F, regardless of submittal time

Well POOP! I've been bamboozled!
It appears you are correct.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/general41fquestionsandanswersupdated-6-28-16pdf/download

Q. If an application was approved within the preceding 24 months, are fingerprint cards and photographs required to be submitted with a new application?

A. Yes. The 24-month exemption for providing supporting “documentation” refers only to the documentation proving the existence of an entity, such as trusts or corporate paperwork. The Form 5320.23 with attached photograph and fingerprint cards are required for each person identified as a responsible person for each submission in order to initiate the required background check. See instruction 2 d. (4) and (5) on the Forms 1, 4, and 5.

 

[Indy-Mike]

Not an attorney or NFA expert but I Found this on the ATF site.....no mention of "blood relative". Just lawful heirs

9.5.3 Distribution of estate firearms. A decedent’s registered NFA firearms may be conveyed tax-exempt to lawful heirs. These distributions are not treated as voluntary “transfers” under the NFA.Rather, they are considered to be involuntary “transfers by operation of law.” Under this concept, ATFwill honor State court decisions relative to the ownership and right to possess NFA firearms. So, whenState courts authorize the distribution of estate firearms to decedents’ lawful heirs, ATF will approve thedistribution and registration to the heirs if the transactions are otherwise lawful. A lawful heir is anyonenamed in the decedent’s will or, in the absence of a will, anyone entitled to inherit under the laws of theState in which the decedent last resided.

 

[M67]

Not an attorney or NFA expert but I Found this on the ATF site.....no mention of "blood relative". Just lawful heirs

9.5.3 Distribution of estate firearms. A decedent’s registered NFA firearms may be conveyed tax-exempt to lawful heirs. These distributions are not treated as voluntary “transfers” under the NFA.Rather, they are considered to be involuntary “transfers by operation of law.” Under this concept, ATFwill honor State court decisions relative to the ownership and right to possess NFA firearms. So, whenState courts authorize the distribution of estate firearms to decedents’ lawful heirs, ATF will approve thedistribution and registration to the heirs if the transactions are otherwise lawful. A lawful heir is anyonenamed in the decedent’s will or, in the absence of a will, anyone entitled to inherit under the laws of theState in which the decedent last resided.

A friend of mine's father in law passed a couple years ago, he owned a suppressor, and my friend owned a couple NFA items too.

They went the form 5 route to get it transfered from his wife (executrix) and get it transfered to my friend. ATF rejected the form 5 stating the suppressor couldn't be transfered to him tax free on the form 5 since he wasn't a blood relative.

Maybe ATF messed up, or maybe my friend needed to include a copy of his marriage license to his father in law's daughter making him "heir" worthy, IDK. But the letter said it couldn't be transfered to him via form 5.

 

[rvb]

so when he passes, the value of that collection is lost to his heirs unless they want to pay $200 per item. This whole transfer tax is a racket.

Again...

They don't have to pay taxes / fees when you die, regardless...
-rvb

 

[rvb]

Not a lawyer, but legal heir is blood relative per usual estate laws, unless you have specified otherwise in a will. If you want stuff to go somewhere besides living spouse, or children if spouse already passed, put it in a will

-rvb

 

[cbhausen]

The whole NFA thing is a big bunch of crap and needs to go away. Playing by these rules sucks, especially post-41F. That mini-rant having been said, tbhausen and I have a trust so my wife can possess a suppressed rifle for home defense and for inheritance purposes.

Rant back on: it's utterly stupid suppressors are NFA regulated. They are safety equipment and a courtesy to everyone within earshot if nothing else.

 

[gamecrimez]

What would be the benefits of having a trust? Is it just leaving said items to a family member & them not having to pay the tax per item or are there other benefits?

 

[rvb]

What would be the benefits of having a trust? Is it just leaving said items to a family member & them not having to pay the tax per item or are there other benefits?

I guess it needs said yet again...

They don't have to pay taxes / fees when you die, regardless...
-rvb

biggest benefit is someone else can use your toys with you not present. If it's of importance to let your spouse, kid, sibling, friend, whatever use your NFA item when you aren't around, then a trust is beneficial. That's about it, imo. When you die, heirs already have access through the trust without paperwork, but then they have to know to take over managing the trust.

It'll only be an issue for me if I die early. I have no sentimental attachment to my NFA items. When I get older or start to get in poor health they'll be transferred to my kids if they want them or sold or destroyed. I hope not to leave any residual NFA hassle in my wake.

-rvb

 

[gamecrimez]

I guess it needs said yet again...



biggest benefit is someone else can use your toys with you not present. If it's of importance to let your spouse, kid, sibling, friend, whatever use your NFA item when you aren't around, then a trust is beneficial. That's about it, imo. When you die, heirs already have access through the trust without paperwork, but then they have to know to take over managing the trust.

It'll only be an issue for me if I die early. I have no sentimental attachment to my NFA items. When I get older or start to get in poor health they'll be transferred to my kids if they want them or sold or destroyed. I hope not to leave any residual NFA hassle in my wake.

-rvb

Thanks for the info. Also is there a age limit? I have 2 sons at which I would leave my items to but as of now they are young 11 & 3, while I don't plan on dying anytime soon, **** happens. I would like to leave them everything I have if im able to or since they are young would I have to leave it to someone else unless they where of age at the time?

 

[rvb]

iirc, have to be 18...

 

[Trigger Time]

If you want 41f to go away then write the new administration when they get into office. If they want it to go away then it will. We the people are in control of our government. So don't be a wimp and curl up into a ball. Have some balls and write a email anletter or make a phone call to your elected representation! You can write and call the White House. And since we have a
pro gun administration coming into office I bet we will see some big shake ups in the ATF and justice department! Make the effort guys if you want to see this bull **** disappear

 

[ol' poke]

Thanks for the info. Also is there a age limit? I have 2 sons at which I would leave my items to but as of now they are young 11 & 3, while I don't plan on dying anytime soon, **** happens. I would like to leave them everything I have if im able to or since they are young would I have to leave it to someone else unless they where of age at the time?

Talk with an NFA trust attorney - and thanks for the reminder. My youngest just turned 18 last November. If I recall how mine was worded, he was listed as a beneficiary, but could not be listed as a trustee until he turned 18.

 

[cop car]

Yes. It's worth it. I have NFA and regular firearms in a trust. If for any reason they declared me or anyone in the trust incapable of owning and keeping firearms, they can't take them. They would just be claimed by someone else in the trust. A person may have to be removed, but it is a legal insulating layer. Not to mention that doing the forms electronically is 1000xs easier then paper. Honestly the way NFA stuff was before the bull**** fingerprints and id-ing etc, it was great. Only thing that sucked was the wait times. Actually filling the forms out and everything else was pretty damn easy.

 

[mototc]

Does 41F retroactively affect trust that were in place before it's passing?

 

[M67]

Does 41F retroactively affect trust that were in place before it's passing?

Any new form 1 or 4 is subject to 41F. Responsible person questionnaire with fingerprints and passport photo (for every responsible person) and LEO notification

 

[CountryBoy19]

Blood relatives only

The executor or executrix (spouse, lawyer) signs off on the paper, but lists your (transferee info) up top. Usually a death certificate goes with the form 5 and only blood relatives apply to the tax tree form 5. No son in laws, daughter in laws, etc., they have to be blood



As for the comment on the previous page about trusts and having a 2 year "grace period" where you can file with no additional pics or fingerprint cards after your first post 41F submission, I thought fingerprint cards and pics were required for each transaction after 41F, regardless of submittal time

Not a lawyer, but legal heir is blood relative per usual estate laws, unless you have specified otherwise in a will. If you want stuff to go somewhere besides living spouse, or children if spouse already passed, put it in a will

-rvb

This ^^^

Legal heir is a legally defined term. It generally means blood relative, but if there is a will that specifies a non-related heir then then person would also be a legal heir. Generally speaking, if you have no wife/children/siblings (or you don't want your stuff going to them) then you need a will that specifies WHO it will go to instead. That will is a binding legal document and your Title II stuff can then transfer to that person tax-free on a Form 5. If you don't care who it goes to, you just want it to go to your next of kin then no will is needed, just realize that "next of kin" can change as the situation changes. Today, "next of kin" may mean your wife (or children if you're divorced), but tomorrow, if you get in a tragic accident with your wife and children and yourself all ending up deceased, "next of kin" may be your estranged brother Larry who you would NEVER want to have your Title II firearms. Guess who is getting them in the absence of a will.

Have a will!!! Or have a trusted that lists beneficiaries and alternate beneficiaries.

 

[moose97]

I asked in my own post - see "First Form 1 (as a trust)" about who & what forms each trustee needs to fill out post 41F. Thanks all in advance!