Kut's Trump Approval Thread #1 (Starts Out at 100%)

[BugI02]

Hopefully his generals do a good job of advising him of what is possible as well as the risks of any particular action, because Trump will be the man on the spot. There will not be enough time in this to debate policy options endlessly in congress. If anything gets done he will have to be the one to act

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Do the folks we would support in Ukraine have the will to be the sharp end? Or is it another Diem government?

I think you are looking at it wrong... we have no "existential" interest in the outcome, just a very strong preference to halt Russia's expansionish tendencies. Ukrainian leads can accept our help or not. The price is they agree to accept our terms. If not, they can depend upon the UN to protect them from Russia and, after they fall, become the allegory for the next target of Russia that they should accept both our help and our terms.

But, Ukraine would accept that deal... it is "existential" for them.

And blowback from that Afghanistan level of zinc coffins was international jihad and an oversupply of mujahideen

The tactic itself worked, raising the cost of the war until Russia withdrew. Who knew that "freedom" in the Middle East meant totalitarian theocracy? Ditto that democracy was a one-time-vote leading to totalitarian theocracy. Dictators like Assad (Hussein, Quadafi, etc) are horrendous monsters, and the worst thing in the world, except for the alternative.

Again, we should only give Ukraine enough help to get a cease-fire and Putin to the negotiating table.

Hopefully his generals do a good job of advising him of what is possible as well as the risks of any particular action, because Trump will be the man on the spot. There will not be enough time in this to debate policy options endlessly in congress. If anything gets done he will have to be the one to act

Marines in general, and Mattis specifically, do not see the world through rose-colored glasses. Trump has surrounded himself with the right people.

The only real question is if he has the courage of leadership to allow Crimea to self-determine. As I said earlier, returning Crimea to Ukraine without the consent, and against the wishes of Crimeans, becomes an existential crisis for the Putin regime, and they would resist accordingly.

 

[BugI02]

I think you are looking at it wrong... we have no "existential" interest in the outcome, just a very strong preference to halt Russia's expansionish tendencies. Ukrainian leads can accept our help or not. The price is they agree to accept our terms. If not, they can depend upon the UN to protect them from Russia and, after they fall, become the allegory for the next target of Russia that they should accept both our help and our terms.

I'm sorry SD4L, I read that and I just see 'Domino Theory 2.0'

But, Ukraine would accept that deal... it is "existential" for them.



The tactic itself worked, raising the cost of the war until Russia withdrew. Who knew that "freedom" in the Middle East meant totalitarian theocracy? Ditto that democracy was a one-time-vote leading to totalitarian theocracy. Dictators like Assad (Hussein, Quadafi, etc) are horrendous monsters, and the worst thing in the world, except for the alternative.

So do we then 'know' what self-determination for large Russian populations within former USSR client states means(Georgia, Crimea,Ukraine etc)? Or former client states with very small Russian populations (Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan etc)? The Russians will not tolerate, IMO, even a limited level of such chaos. There is a significant risk of inflaming the whole region of former client states. IMO Putin was a direct response to the former chaos engendered by self-determination in those regions

I think we would again be in the realm of unexpected and unintended consequences. I see the dangers inherent in doing nothing, but I also see the dangers inherent in doing something thats not a high percentage move just because we feel the need to do something

Again, we should only give Ukraine enough help to get a cease-fire and Putin to the negotiating table.

I think we need to know how far we are willing to go down this track before we take the first step. I'm sure you know the relationship between battle plans and the first shot fired. I am not willing to go to war with Russia over the fate of Ukraine, and that could be the end game in this. I believe as you do that Trump has the right people around him and as long as he actually listens to them and all parties go into this with eyes wide open I will support them. I just hope they realize that IMO the potential for a humiliating defeat is at least as high as the potential to achieve our purpose



Marines in general, and Mattis specifically, do not see the world through rose-colored glasses. Trump has surrounded himself with the right people.

The only real question is if he has the courage of leadership to allow Crimea to self-determine. As I said earlier, returning Crimea to Ukraine without the consent, and against the wishes of Crimeans, becomes an existential crisis for the Putin regime, and they would resist accordingly.

As I said in the other post, the Crimeans might be able to get away with reattaching to Ukraine, but only as a politically neutral/neutered entity and with a Russian long term lease (100 yrs?) on that base. They might have lost their chance, though, by the initial move to deny the base. Putin may not wish to risk that outcome ever again. Ukraine certainly needs to realize they will never be masters of their fate

 

[T.Lex]

Do the folks we would support in Ukraine have the will to be the sharp end? Or is it another Diem government?

And blowback from that Afghanistan level of zinc coffins was international jihad and an oversupply of mujahideen

Whoa. Ukraine is nothing like Viet Nam. It can't be.

The Ukraine historically has a strong economy, which is what makes it valuable for resources. In Soviet times, it was considered the "breadbasket" of the USSR - kinda like the midwest in the US.

VN had rice.

The Ukraine has struggled with autonomy for a long time, but has developed robust democratic principles since the fall of the Soviet Union (and even some fistfights in parliament). Viet Nam never really had that until after we left.

I'm not following the Afghanistan reference vis a vis Ukraine. Those 2 countries cannot get more different. Unless we're worried about Eastern Orthodox jihad. Which might be reasonable, but their prayers take WAY longer. (Paging Mr. Foszoe, Mr. Foszoe, please pick up the red courtesy phone....)

In terms of whether it is appropriate to commit ground troops to the defense of the Ukraine, my response is that it depends on when the "right" time is. Putin is only getting stronger. He continues to re-establish the Soviet era boundaries. Are we prepared for another Cold War?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

One of my earliest ratings was that the Trump twitter account was less "Trumpy"...

Well, he's gone back to full-on Trump mode... tweeting like he always has... even retweeting his "personal account" nonsense into the official POTUS account. That's just... embarrassing.

-2. I expected some professionalism. I'm disappointed.

 

[T.Lex]

A so called president lacking so called professionalism from his so called Twitter account?

This is my shocked face.

 

[KLB]

One of my earliest ratings was that the Trump twitter account was less "Trumpy"...

Well, he's gone back to full-on Trump mode... tweeting like he always has... even retweeting his "personal account" nonsense into the official POTUS account. That's just... embarrassing.

-2. I expected some professionalism. I'm disappointed.

Still a petulant child at heart.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Still a petulant child at heart.

Lots of his supporters approve of his plain spoken thoughts via Twitter. My score remains unchanged, given no tangible damage has been associated with the president's use of Twitter...though I personally dislike the practice.

 

[T.Lex]

Lots of his supporters approve of his plain spoken thoughts via Twitter. My score remains unchanged, given no tangible damage has been associated with the president's use of Twitter...though I personally dislike the practice.

Any thoughts on what will happen to the score when Gorsuch is asked about being a "so called" judge?

 

[jamil]

Any thoughts on what will happen to the score when Gorsuch is asked about being a "so called" judge?

It's just bad behavior meeting bad behavior. Clearly, objectively, Gorsuch is not a so-called judge. He has bonafides.

In the case of Trump calling the judge "so-called", he sort of has a point. I think that judge justified his ruling not as much on a legal standing as him just thinking Trump was being poopy.

 

[T.Lex]

It's just bad behavior meeting bad behavior. Clearly, objectively, Gorsuch is not a so-called judge. He has bonafides.

So, in confirmation hearings, context doesn't really matter. Trump handed Dems a way to extend these news cycles.

In the case of Trump calling the judge "so-called", he sort of has a point. I think that judge justified his ruling not as much on a legal standing as him just thinking Trump was being poopy.

I disagree. The government couldn't show a rational basis for the change, as the prior methods had been sufficient to deny entry to islamofascists. Its a bit of a trick bag - we want effective systems but can't predict how long the current systems will be effective - but the judge's decision, as affirmed by the court of appeals, was reasonable.

Reasonable people can disagree. Or at least used to be able to.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Lots of his supporters approve of his plain spoken thoughts via Twitter. My score remains unchanged, given no tangible damage has been associated with the president's use of Twitter...though I personally dislike the practice.

I mostly hate it for two reasons:

1. It has historically been powerful enough to influence company decisions, stock market, etc... Since words/threats are oftentimes precursor to actions. I'd rather actions be actions, and tweets not have so much of an impact on behavior/economy.

2. The childish manner in which he tweets (and embarrassingly re-tweets through the official President of the United States account) really makes the US look bad. Him tweeting on his personal account is one thing... but re-routing that through the account of the most powerful and important position in the world for others to see makes me, personally, feel embarrassed. Not discounting the good or bad he will do in four years... hoping it's mostly good... but it's like your parents doing something in front of your friends that makes you cringe.

It's just bad behavior meeting bad behavior. Clearly, objectively, Gorsuch is not a so-called judge. He has bonafides.

In the case of Trump calling the judge "so-called", he sort of has a point. I think that judge justified his ruling not as much on a legal standing as him just thinking Trump was being poopy.

If a judge has a constitutional argument against the EO, that's what I want to see. If the judge halts it because societal pressure and "I don't like it", that's not good enough. If you have a point to make... make it using law and the constitution.

Still, "so-called judge" is out of bounds. Trump doesn't like being challenged, and I'm hoping his advisers keep him in-line when it continues to happen.

 

[printcraft]

So, in confirmation hearings, context doesn't really matter. Trump handed Dems a way to extend these news cycles.

That was and is going to happen regardless of whatever Trump does. The spin and agenda is already written, it's just fill in the blanks at this point.

 

[T.Lex]

If a judge has a constitutional argument against the EO, that's what I want to see. If the judge halts it because societal pressure and "I don't like it", that's not good enough. If you have a point to make... make it using law and the constitution.

Still, "so-called judge" is out of bounds. Trump doesn't like being challenged, and I'm hoping his advisers keep him in-line when it continues to happen.

Here's the order.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/2017_2003_robart_tro_ruling.pdf

If you skip down to the Conclusion, it articulates the responsibilities of the co-ordinate branches of government.

 

[T.Lex]

That was and is going to happen regardless of whatever Trump does. The spin and agenda is already written, it's just fill in the blanks at this point.

No, it isn't anymore.

Its one thing to make one's opponents work hard.

It is another to make their job easier.

By unprincipled attacks on the district court judge in the Immigration EO case, he has given his opponents the words to use - Trump's own words - to build a case against confirmation.

Had Trump said, "This is all part of the process, and my DOJ will aggressively appeal this righteous cause." then the Dems have nothing more than what they had a week ago. His foolish bluster has now given them more than what they had before.

I really want to see Gorsuch confirmed (even though commercials advocating for his confirmation are in REALLY poor taste IMHO), and am bothered by anything that makes that less likely.

 

[jamil]

That was and is going to happen regardless of whatever Trump does. The spin and agenda is already written, it's just fill in the blanks at this point.

And this is the folly of the left politicians and news media. They have it dialed up to eleven all the time for everything. Makes it less likely to hear the legitimate criticisms from both sides. The left won't distinguish the truly bad things from the hyperbole. The right will just cast all critical news aside, even legitimate criticisms, as hyperbole.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Any thoughts on what will happen to the score when Gorsuch is asked about being a "so called" judge?

Lol, I expect him to take the high road. He did after all call Garland FIRST, after it was announced he had been tapped to the the seat.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

So what do you think of Trump saying "any negative polls are fake news".... (really wish that phrase would just die already)

This feeds the flames of the hard-left calling him a fascist/hitler/nazi/etc. On the surface it just sounds like propaganda, but he can't be that dumb, can he?

Once again, he fed this through the OFFICIAL POTUS account (original here, RT'd to @POTUS):

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/828574430800539648

Any negative polls are fake news, just like the CNN, ABC, NBC polls in the election. Sorry, people want border security and extreme vetting.

I don't think he's wrong, I think people do want what he's saying... but man, he sure has a way of saying things that will spark more apocalyptic screams from the left.

 

[Kutnupe14]

So what do you think of Trump saying "any negative polls are fake news".... (really wish that phrase would just die already)

This feeds the flames of the hard-left calling him a fascist/hitler/nazi/etc. On the surface it just sounds like propaganda, but he can't be that dumb, can he?

Once again, he fed this through the OFFICIAL POTUS account (original here, RT'd to @POTUS):

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/828574430800539648



I don't think he's wrong, I think people do want what he's saying... but man, he sure has a way of saying things that will spark more apocalyptic screams from the left.

I don't think I've ever shaken my head so much, in so short a span, in my life.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Here's the order.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/2017_2003_robart_tro_ruling.pdf

If you skip down to the Conclusion, it articulates the responsibilities of the co-ordinate branches of government.

Might not matter anymore. Though I'm sure there will be more challenges.

Justice Department demolishes case against Trump order « Hot Air Headlines

Robart “did not confront” the arguments against his position and indeed “gave no explanation why the state of Washington has a high likelihood of success on the merits of its claims.” Beyond that, the state itself, as a state, is not subject to the executive order, and therefore does not have standing to challenge it. And Robart’s order is “vastly overbroad” and “untethered to Washington State’s particular claims” and “extends even to aliens abroad who currently have no visas” and “applies nationwide, effectively overriding the judgment of another district court [in Boston] that sustained the executive order against parallel challenges.”