LA Drug Warriors Murder Innocent 80 Year Old

[Denny347]

Yea because an entry team shouldnt be focused on the immediate threat, they should be looking around all willy nilly especially the one on point. I guess he doesnt trust the other officers to provide cover.... Really... But again like I said I am the ignorant one...

Gunner

OK, Phylo answered your question. Quite well in fact. He's the expert here about such things. What is you background that allows you to KNOW the Phylo is wrong?

 

[phylodog]

Yea because an entry team shouldnt be focused on the immediate threat, they should be looking around all willy nilly especially the one on point. I guess he doesnt trust the other officers to provide cover.... Really... But again like I said I am the ignorant one...

Gunner

Send me your resume and experience, we're always looking for knowledgeable folks who can teach us a thing or two.

 

[phylodog]

I'm sorry you're off topic, but the case being discussed in this thread included mention of an 80 year old who was shot in his bed.

Apparently he had a 22lr revolver and may or may not have had it pointed at the door when police ran in.

I get that, still not sure how the question was directed at me.

 

[Tombs]

I get that, still not sure how the question was directed at me.

Because I made the silly mistake of assuming your post was on-topic.

 

[Manatee]

I'm aware that people use words incorrectly, and often. When presenting a story to a group of readers (INGO), however, and it pertains to a recent killing that may/may not reach a courtroom... one should be careful not to jump ahead of the verdict.

Let's break this down, though: "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

Calling this idiot a "murderer" requires you to create feelings of ill-will and intent to kill an innocent.

I don't think ill-will and intent were present here. Just a giant irresponsible muck up that ended with an innocent man dead. It'd be slander/libelous to label him otherwise, at this point.

Granted, I think we can give OJ a pass and call him a murderer, since he wrote that dumb book and all. :P

Go with the Biblical definition, Bro. Thou shalt not

 

[GunnerDan]

So I cant see what is going on in a still photo or at least what MAY be going on in a still photo... and phyl can read, understand and know exactly what is going on. Again like I said I am the idiot here...

 

[88GT]

I'm aware that people use words incorrectly, and often. When presenting a story to a group of readers (INGO), however, and it pertains to a recent killing that may/may not reach a courtroom... one should be careful not to jump ahead of the verdict.

Let's break this down, though: "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

Calling this idiot a "murderer" requires you to create feelings of ill-will and intent to kill an innocent.

I don't think ill-will and intent were present here. Just a giant irresponsible muck up that ended with an innocent man dead. It'd be slander/libelous to label him otherwise, at this point.

Granted, I think we can give OJ a pass and call him a murderer, since he wrote that dumb book and all. :P

It's murder because he killed someone. It would be murder if it were a non-badged citizen. That this was under the guise of a LE action doesn't change anything. I don't see that there's any evidence showing it was self defense. Which is the only defense the LEO has. He's already perjured himself once. I'd be willing to bet my V-day dinner tonight that the gun on the dresser was never touched by the deceased.

 

[phylodog]

Because I made the silly mistake of assuming your post was on-topic.

As with many threads here, particularly in the political section, we end up with a few different conversations occurring simultaneously.

 

[Trigger Time]

If I know I have no problems with the law and people are kicking in my doors, yelling and screaming (even yelling police), I'm gonna have something bigger than a 22 pointed at what's coming too. Assuming they are criminals posing as police would be a good probability.
No one wants to see innocent people hurt or killed even police, but at some point when you put on that uniform you cease to be an individual like it or not.

 

[LEaSH]

I've never killed an 80 year old. I'm pretty sure phylo, Denny, VUPD, public servant, j706, and jsx1043 haven't either.

You always sound so defensive. You know I've never accused you or those you've listed.
You continue to pop up and state, "Not me, Not me, Not me!!!"

 

[phylodog]

So I cant see what is going on in a still photo or at least what MAY be going on in a still photo... and phyl can read, understand and know exactly what is going on. Again like I said I am the idiot here...

Share with the class your experience carrying and shooting around a shield to gain yourself some credibility. I provided a very logical explanation for what you see in the pics. I'm open to a reasonable disagreement, always willing to learn.

 

[Rookie]

Share with the class your experience carrying and shooting around a shield to gain yourself some credibility. I provided a very logical explanation for what you see in the pics. I'm open to a reasonable disagreement, always willing to learn.

Call of duty

 

[Trigger Time]

It's murder because he killed someone. It would be murder if it were a non-badged citizen. That this was under the guise of a LE action doesn't change anything. I don't see that there's any evidence showing it was self defense. Which is the only defense the LEO has. He's already perjured himself once. I'd be willing to bet my V-day dinner tonight that the gun on the dresser was never touched by the deceased.

Yep and yep. I bet your correct.

 

[Magneto]

It seems to me that a lot of these raids that go bad have something in common. The warrant is issued on information based on a CI, then after the raid there was nothing going on at that residence. I remember once case where it was a no knock raid looking for a wanted individual. Someone ended up dead, and the people that lived there had never heard of the person the police were looking for. It seems to me the CI information the police go on can be less than credible and if there were consequences for these raids going wrong there would be far less of them.

 

[Tombs]

It's murder because he killed someone. It would be murder if it were a non-badged citizen. That this was under the guise of a LE action doesn't change anything. I don't see that there's any evidence showing it was self defense. Which is the only defense the LEO has. He's already perjured himself once. I'd be willing to bet my V-day dinner tonight that the gun on the dresser was never touched by the deceased.

Whether the gun was touched or not isn't even a good defense for the officer.

Lets argue from the standpoint that he did what we're always instructed to do as law abiding citizens when our homes are broken into. Stay in a room with a firearm pointed at the door and don't go looking for trouble.

When a hard-of-hearing elderly person has no reasonable way to know it's police but knows his home was broken in to, he has the right to defend himself.

That entry team has the job of assuring public safety first and foremost. That's why they're even there, right?
They have countless means of insuring the safety of everyone involved, and making sure everyone gets to live to see another day. When they decide to cut corners and go rambo, they deserve hard jail time. With all the time and effort put into casing the house before the event even took place, it was their responsibility to have a game plan and know who might or might not be there, as well as whether they're violent with a criminal history or relatively harmless. There's no excuse to go breaking doors down and charging in with firearms when the people living there have no violent criminal history.

They failed to do their job, and someone died as a result of that.
There's quite a few people who hold responsibility for this event, and none of this responsibility falls back to the elderly man.

It's seriously time to ban the practice of no-knock warrants for such low level crime, the only time such a thing is warranted is when someone will die if you don't.

 

[GunnerDan]

Share with the class your experience carrying and shooting around a shield to gain yourself some credibility. I provided a very logical explanation for what you see in the pics. I'm open to a reasonable disagreement, always willing to learn.

Why so you can say because I am not a police officer that anything that I may offer is moot because of the fact I am not a trained officer. Canting a pistol will have an affect on where the round strikes based upon muzzle jump because of recoil. I know in a "close combat" scenario such as in this photo it may not come into play that much, but canting the weapon does and will affect where the round strikes.

Gunner

 

[GunnerDan]

Also shoot with you pistol vertical and sights on target, then cant the weapon 90 degrees and put the sights on target, based upon the cant, the round will end up low and left or right since the sights are designed to be used from a vertical angle. But then again, as I have said before I am the idiot.

Gunner

 

[88GT]

Whether the gun was touched or not isn't even a good defense for the officer.

I was taking a position very generous to the LEO involved in the shooting. I happen to think that the dynamic entry is morally and legally wrong because it creates this indefensible situation for the citizen. I also think that the standard of self defense for LEO in a police action gives them liberties that the standard citizen has no claim to. I'm no fan of this kind of LE action. But for the sake of the argument, I was giving the officer all the rope in the world. Whether he uses it to pull himself out of hell or hang himself with it is up to him. I'm usually a stickler for word meanings, but in this case, I think applying a legal definition that is applicable solely for the purpose of defining an act for conviction and sentencing is overly restrictive.

 

[phylodog]

Canting a pistol will have an affect on where the round strikes based upon muzzle jump because of recoil.

Gunner

I'll be done now

 

[GunnerDan]

I'll be done now

Oh ok then...