Looking for 1/2 MOA in .308 win

[roscott]

It is also worth noting that some people make claims regarding their shooting or their rifles based on "it did this 3 shot group."

While every shooter (and rifle) has good and bad days, random chance can cause three rounds to fly the same way every so often. If you roll three dice, and they all land on ones, you do not have three dice magically capable of consistent all-snake eyes groups, yet that would seem to be what some shooters out there claim for their rifles.

I was shooting this past summer with Americanbob at 250 yards, and we were both having a very good day. On that shooting session, I was able to shoot a 2" group, shot after shot, reliably. On that day at that moment, (it wasn't very windy,) I was a sub-MOA shooter.

If my rifle happens to put 3 rounds in the same hole, it is not suddenly a 1/4 MOA rifle. I believe that is an important distinction to make.

 

[Woobie]

Great article, but I tuned out when I read that the guy only touches the trigger.

I'm sorry, but to me, that's not really shooting. It's pushing a button on a machine. Might as well automate it.

Now, that's not a criticism. Those guys achieve amazing results with the machine they use. Its just not something that appeals to me.

I'm in the same boat on the bench rest shooting. The work they did in that article was important, though. It is an interesting insight into mechanical accuracy. But that is the way the serious BR boys shoot.

 

[42769vette]

Best ive ever done was 10 shots inside of 3.5 inchs @ 750 yds. That was with the 260 I mentioned earlier. Yes thats 1/2 moa, no Idoubt I could do it tomorrow. I normally only shoot groups a few times a year.

 

[BGDave]

To answer your question... The closest that you will get to a 1/2 MOA rifle under $1000 out of the box, is the Remington 700P (Police). It is a rifle that is not mass produced with the rest of the R700 line of rifles. It is made in the same part of the Remington factory as the M24 rifles, M40 base components and the 40X competition rifle. The 700P is a semi-custom rifle in that it is hand fitted with hand-selected barrels and receivers. It is then finished with the HS Precision stock.

The 700P is not advertised to the mass public because Remington would rather keep the price low for LE departments around the country. It is a rifle that Remington also voluntarily put onto the Clinton Assault Weapons ban list so that they could better keep it available only to LE customers.

I sold my previous R700 P to a LEO SWAT member here on the forums, but I posted many results in the sub 1/2 MOA range.

This is exactly what I've been thinking. They do come up for sale on INGO from time to time. More money up front, but they don't need any upgrades.
Just good scope rings, bases and Leupold scopes come to mind. A good windless day and Federal Gold Medal Match will get some 5 shot groups you will carry around in your wallet.

 

[natdscott]

If you want that kind of accuracy at that price, you really don't have a choice but to look for a used Target rifle that you know hasn't seen that many rounds.

They are the only ones that will just about be guaranteed to do that level of accuracy (because we demand it, can hold it, and can use the help on target) at that price range. Sure, there are "tactical" rifles out there that will do it, but most of them will break that budget...

...and the lower end ones like the Remchesters surely can't be guaranteed to do 1/2 Minute. Dream on.

-Nate

 

[SheepDog4Life]

It is also worth noting that some people make claims regarding their shooting or their rifles based on "it did this 3 shot group."

While every shooter (and rifle) has good and bad days, random chance can cause three rounds to fly the same way every so often. If you roll three dice, and they all land on ones, you do not have three dice magically capable of consistent all-snake eyes groups, yet that would seem to be what some shooters out there claim for their rifles.

I was shooting this past summer with Americanbob at 250 yards, and we were both having a very good day. On that shooting session, I was able to shoot a 2" group, shot after shot, reliably. On that day at that moment, (it wasn't very windy,) I was a sub-MOA shooter.

If my rifle happens to put 3 rounds in the same hole, it is not suddenly a 1/4 MOA rifle. I believe that is an important distinction to make.

You are exactly right, which when people quote/show groups, unless it's a 10-shot or multiple 5-shot groups, it's pretty meaningless. Like flipping heads three times in a row, it was just a fluke that would seldomly (1 in 8 attempts) be repeatable.

For me, my rifle, and my purpose, I'm most interested in the first shot from a cold barrel striking a 2" target at 200 yds, and the next 4 follow-up shots doing the same. Every time, straight out of the rifle case.

 

[nipprdog]

I wonder where the OP went

Check his history. Not the only thread he abonded.

 

[Hookeye]

My current newer ADL .243 win is around .75" @ 100 with factory ammo.
Think with some experimentation I can get it close to .5"
Dunno yet.

Had two sub .50" sporters. One was bedded, free floated, trigger job........a 700 BDL in .243 win...........'74/'75 vintage.
It loved 4350 and Nosler 70 gr.

The other a stock Ruger #1 B. Speer 75 gr and 4895 what it liked. Switching to Hornady 75 gr made it a .75" rifle.
Eventually it got to be a 1" rifle no matter what............and examination showed the throat eroded a bit.
Broke my heart.

Buddy had a #1 that shot super good, but he put a lot of $ into that one, and worked a long while to find what it liked.

 

[Hookeye]

I'll work a bit with a rifle, but will not buy 4 or 5 powders, different primers and try 10 different bullets.
Don't have the wallet or patience for that.
No groundhogs around anymore, so am content with a .75" rig on yotes.

 

[Hookeye]

My old ADL put 5 into .660" at 100 yds. Four of them into .330".
I did that with the next 5 shots as well. Witnessed (his jaw was on the ground when he saw the target).

Drove to JP years ago, dude was set up when we pulled in (stranger) .....he had a Stolle Panda and all the goodies, 6mm PPC. Offered me and a bud a go with his rifle.
200 yards (think it 225 or something- but call it 200). I just got there, drove a lifted Jeep.........was a little burned up.

I shot, gun jammed, owner pulled from pedestal and said it'd ruin my group. Lined it up again and boom..........gun locked. He apologized and got it open, and I shot the next 3. So he looks through the spotter and asks which bull I shot at. Told him. Five shots, twice removed from rest.............and...........it was a .5" group.

At 200.

He was not happy.

Thanked him, and explained that I worked under a microscope for a living. Don't think it mattered at that point LOL

 

[Hookeye]

Coworkers and I went to Winamac to shoot. Dude had a Savage 340 in .222 rem.
Felt undergunned.
Borrowed his dad's chuck rifle later and we went back to the range.

It was a Pre 64 Win 70 heavy bbl, in .243 win..........with Unertl. He only had a box of ammo, so I let him try some of my loads (for that good ADL I had).
200 yards..........5 under an inch. Will add that impact point shifted a fair bit, if using the Canjar trigger in set mode or not.

Rifle was like new too. Gave him my hardcase...........goodness he was gonna toss it in the back seat of the Jeep to go chuckin' !!!!

Never been a M70 fan. But that one I could have made an exception for !

 

[Hookeye]

FWIW my dad had a #1 B that could do a small group now and then, but usually was .75"
He always FL sized his brass and it drove me nuts..........stuck in his ways..........I dunno if that thing was at its best or was just getting lucky due to variables stack up.
Never will know..............its been shot a lot.
If it comes my way I won't experiment with it..........until it's rebarreled.

 

[Hookeye]

Mighty nice groups with non tactical rifles............back when Varmint Hunter Magazine was in publication.

 

[KJQ6945]

This is exactly what I've been thinking. They do come up for sale on INGO from time to time. More money up front, but they don't need any upgrades.
Just good scope rings, bases and Leupold scopes come to mind. A good windless day and Federal Gold Medal Match will get some 5 shot groups you will carry around in your wallet.

I blame your brother for my 700 PSS. That was the first gun I shot that you could shoot one big hole with 5 rounds.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

FWIW:

The 700P hasn't been the PSS for almost 20 years now. The PSS name was dropped as it was to aggressive for the main stream. PSS stood for police sniper special or sharp shooter. Now it's just the P for police ( and depending who you ask at Reminton it stands for Parkerized). Another myth is that these are special run guns, they are not. These are nothing more than variants of the Varmit line in the 700 LE catalog. The difference between them and the varmint line is the HS Precision stock and the parkerized finish. The actions are the same as any other and the barrel is a medium heavy contour 26" 1:12 twist.

The only rifle that comes anywhere near close to something "special" today is the 5-R Milspec line up which ironically falls in the standard catalog. Up until recently there was only one model of the 5-R milspec and it had a SS receiver and the correct 24" 1:11.25" twist barrel that got the heavier grain bullets out to 1K yards properly. These are the same length and twist the M24 uses. Now I believe they offer 3 models. It has never been offered from the factory with a tactical style stock, instead its always been a doubled studded Sendero stock.

So unless you have a 1980's early 90's rifle (those were the PSS) your P model is a tacticool Varmit rifle.

Not trying to bust bubbles, just trying to keep people informed.

 

[natdscott]

Hookeye, not to change the topic, but FL sizing PROPERLY has not been proven to cause issues with either rifle or ammunition accuracy potential.

-Nate

 

[Hawkeye7br]

Many years ago, we shot a benchrest league at Jasper. I have a 6br in 40x stock and Shilen barrel. Learned A LOT about groups and random shots. The benchrest guys will tell you that a 5 shot group will typically be 30% bigger that a 3 shot group. Wind makes a big difference. My gun shot averaged .350" groups at 100y, with me trying to read the wind. I had a tight neck and turned the brass, even segregating the cases if I had a bad shot. Often I took a single stage press and reloaded the same 5 cases in between relays.

A true 1/2 inch gun is difficult to come by from a factory. There are many for sale from gunsmiths like Bob White, but keeping your total cost under $1k is hard to do.

I still shoot my old rifle. Go out with a buddy who has a similar gun and we shoot golf balls at 240 yards at Riley. Even so, we don't hit them all, meaning my .350" rifle becomes .8 moa when moving from target to target. The consistency of sandbags, cheek weld, etc all plays a significant part in detracting from accuracy.

 

[MohawkSlim]

I think that if I had the time and the money, I could really dig long-range shooting.

It really doesn't take much time or money.

Your average AR will make hits at 500 all day long. That's a $500 cost. Put another $200 worth of glass on it and it could be easy. If you're looking to get into longer range shooting and want a more precision-rig bolt gun with glass it still can be done for under $1000. Personally, I bought a used Rem 783 (in .308) with a cheapo Bushnell 3-9 on it for $300. I shoot surplus machine gun ammo and get 3moa groups. That's plenty good for man-sized targets out to 700 yards.

I like hitting steel. That BA stealth has hit steel at 1,000 yards, but that's also a 3' diameter plate. In all honesty with most modern rifles you can make hits at 1,000 yards if you understand the concepts going on to do it.

Exactly.

4moa or so isn't super hard and doesn't have to be expensive. It's good enough to ring steel gongs and make decent hits on man-sized targets at distance. With a little practice most shooters are capable of this standard with any random rifle and Walmart ammo. What the OP is talking about isn't necessarily stuff of legends but we're getting to the point where it's not really possible based on ability alone. Once you start getting down to below 2 moa you're forced to take into account more than just the shooter's skill alone. At that point, it starts to become a gear race.

You're basically just eliminating variables and looking for consistency after that.

The shooter still has to do their part but it's more on the consistency of the equipment and, unfortunately, that's almost impossible to do on the cheap. Long range shooting is extremely fun and satisfying but it's important to understand the capabilities and limitations of the shooter and gear beforehand. If you go in knowing you can plink at 200 yards with your PSA blem rifle and Tula 55grs with the expectation of getting 5 inch groups you'll be fine. If you're going in looking for holes touching holes you'll probably be disappointed.




.....and on a semi-related note, are we talking ID or OD when we're measuring groups???

 

[BGDave]

I blame your brother for my 700 PSS. That was the first gun I shot that you could shoot one big hole with 5 rounds.

Then you might know about the reloads I did for his rifle. Weighed the cases, trickled the powder to the tenth grain, deburred the flash holes, even weighed the primers. He takes it down to shoot this blessed ammo. When I ask him how it shot, he says "great" and shows me his target. It was the best bullet hole smiley face I've ever seen. Wish I had kept that target.

 

[BGDave]

FWIW:

The 700P hasn't been the PSS for almost 20 years now. The PSS name was dropped as it was to aggressive for the main stream. PSS stood for police sniper special or sharp shooter. Now it's just the P for police ( and depending who you ask at Reminton it stands for Parkerized). Another myth is that these are special run guns, they are not. These are nothing more than variants of the Varmit line in the 700 LE catalog. The difference between them and the varmint line is the HS Precision stock and the parkerized finish. The actions are the same as any other and the barrel is a medium heavy contour 26" 1:12 twist.

The only rifle that comes anywhere near close to something "special" today is the 5-R Milspec line up which ironically falls in the standard catalog. Up until recently there was only one model of the 5-R milspec and it had a SS receiver and the correct 24" 1:11.25" twist barrel that got the heavier grain bullets out to 1K yards properly. These are the same length and twist the M24 uses. Now I believe they offer 3 models. It has never been offered from the factory with a tactical style stock, instead its always been a doubled studded Sendero stock.

So unless you have a 1980's early 90's rifle (those were the PSS) your P model is a tacticool Varmit rifle.

Not trying to bust bubbles, just trying to keep people informed.

Don't know about Kevin's rifle, but my barrel code is AP. March of 1995. PSS