Manhunt: Police shoot innocent people looking for suspect

[kjf48197]

Do they have gangsters or cops looking for the ex-cop?

 

[churchmouse]

I think back to the encounter between LAPD and the armed and armored bank robbers with the drum fed full auto AK's.
Leo could not hit much of anything and most were hunkered down and scared to death from the videos I saw. So many opportunity's for leg shots and the like but all passed on. No tactical sense showed in this encounter.
This is not a slam on LEO just a statement as to their readiness for encounters. Phylodog has mentioned a lack of funding for training. I see this and agree but really, My daughter can hit exactly what she is shooting at at all times.
Yes, there are high levels of anxiety and emotion involved when firing on a real live person but WTF....#1 be sure of target.....#2 be aware of back ground area....3rd hit what you are shooting at....again, refer to #1. This is just so wrong and can not be labeled as defensive in any way. They saw no weapons, were not taking fire and reminds me of the ambush on Clyde Barrow and Bonnie.
Total Bravo Sierra.
Get some training before you become LEO please. Most of those guys are just PI$$ POOR SHOTS>

 

[phylodog]

I think back to the encounter between LAPD and the armed and armored bank robbers with the drum fed full auto AK's.
Leo could not hit much of anything and most were hunkered down and scared to death from the videos I saw. So many opportunity's for leg shots and the like but all passed on. No tactical sense showed in this encounter.
This is not a slam on LEO just a statement as to their readiness for encounters. Phylodog has mentioned a lack of funding for training. I see this and agree but really, My daughter can hit exactly what she is shooting at at all times.
Yes, there are high levels of anxiety and emotion involved when firing on a real live person but WTF....#1 be sure of target.....#2 be aware of back ground area....3rd hit what you are shooting at....again, refer to #1. This is just so wrong and can not be labeled as defensive in any way. They saw no weapons, were not taking fire and reminds me of the ambush on Clyde Barrow and Bonnie.
Total Bravo Sierra.
Get some training before you become LEO please. Most of those guys are just PI$$ POOR SHOTS>

I'm not attempting to make excuses for what has happened in the past couple of days out there because there are none to be made.

The incident you brought up (LA bank robbery) is a bit different. I can show you lots of cops who shoot very well on the range and lots of cops who didn't hit crap when involved in a gunfight. Very serious physiological proccesses affect the shooting ability of a person when faced with a deadly force encounter, particularly when someone is shooting back. It isn't just cops, you will see the same thing with folks in the military.

It's a bit like the old saying that "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth". Training can certainly aid to reduce the extent to which the body reacts to these encounters and experience does as well but I can assure you that the first time someone starts cranking rounds off at you with an AK your typical accuracy goes out the window.

None of this applies to shooting through the rear end of a pickup truck at an elderly lady delivering newspapers.

 

[churchmouse]

I'm not attempting to make excuses for what has happened in the past couple of days out there because there are none to be made.

The incident you brought up (LA bank robbery) is a bit different. I can show you lots of cops who shoot very well on the range and lots of cops who didn't hit crap when involved in a gunfight. Very serious physiological proccesses affect the shooting ability of a person when faced with a deadly force encounter, particularly when someone is shooting back. It isn't just cops, you will see the same thing with folks in the military.

It's a bit like the old saying that "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth". Training can certainly aid to reduce the extent to which the body reacts to these encounters and experience does as well but I can assure you that the first time someone starts cranking rounds off at you with an AK your typical accuracy goes out the window.

None of this applies to shooting through the rear end of a pickup truck at an elderly lady delivering newspapers.

Agreed...not all LEO are poor shots but I have seen many at Eagle Creek that made me a bit nervous. I just expect more from LEO for obvious reasons.
And yes, as stated, things change when the fight starts. I understand the emotions and reactions to taking fire as I have myself. It is a game changer. Not everybody will stand ground and return.
But (always a but) this was just a woman delivering papers. Not even a Bonnie and Clyde deal. What sense can be made of this. Cowboy actions from our LEO can not help our cause as gun owners.
I feel the world is loosing its mind collectively. It is damned scary folks.

 

[UncleMike]

One man is terrorizing hundreds or thousands of LAPD officers. Hundreds or thousands of LAPD officers are terrorizing hundreds of thousands of citizens in LA. Since you think LAPD isn't out of line, put your wife and children in a black Nissan Titan and send them driving around LA. Hell, they wouldn't be safe in a pink Tahoe out there apparently.

Actually the number of LA Officers is just over 10,000 and the population of LA was 3,792,621 according to the 2010 Census.
Like fictional L.A. Detective Joe Friday used to say.
"Just the facts Sir."

 

[Spot Me 2]

What is it that makes this guy a high priority? Not saying what Dorner is doing is right nor wrong. But the massive manhunt that they are deploying in this search is the question. I can think of other "shooter on the loose" stories that have not had such a massive manhunt.

Because Illinois took over 1rst place for the closest to being bankrupt. What better way to reclaim first place then to spend billions of $$$$ looking for one man....

Do they have gangsters or cops looking for the ex-cop?

Cops, if they were using gangsters they would have found him dead already!

 

[Rookie]

From my experience, adrenaline can play havoc in accuracy. I was an Leo in the air force and we had a firearms training simulator. You stood in front of a movie screen and acted a scenario. Your weapon was as real as it could possibly get, an m-9 with a hose in the mag well. The hose was an air line which gave the gun realistic recoil and your shots were shown on the screen as red dots.
Anyway, my first scenario involved a traffic stop on a truck. As I'm approaching the truck, a person pops up out of the bed with a weapon. In one fluid motion, I drop to one knee, kill the bumper, pump two into the tailgate and blow the guy's ear off. The more scenarios I ran, the better I got at keeping my rounds on target.
The problem is that most officers aren't trained to fire under stress, they're trained to punch holes in paper...

 

[UncleMike]

From my experience, adrenaline can play havoc in accuracy. I was an Leo in the air force and we had a firearms training simulator. You stood in front of a movie screen and acted a scenario. Your weapon was as real as it could possibly get, an m-9 with a hose in the mag well. The hose was an air line which gave the gun realistic recoil and your shots were shown on the screen as red dots.
Anyway, my first scenario involved a traffic stop on a truck. As I'm approaching the truck, a person pops up out of the bed with a weapon. In one fluid motion, I drop to one knee, kill the bumper, pump two into the tailgate and blow the guy's ear off. The more scenarios I ran, the better I got at keeping my rounds on target.
The problem is that most officers aren't trained to fire under stress, they're trained to punch holes in paper...

True.
That paper has zero chance of shooting back and the Officer knows that.
Inject a lot of Adrenalin, the knowledge that the a/hole that you're looking for is capable of, and determined to, kill you. And the guys who can shoot the Hell out of paper all day can't hit crap when confronted by a situation that calls for instant decision making and cool headed marksmanship.
When asked how to win a gunfight, Wyatt Earp responded. "You have to take your time in a hurry."
That means don't just start shooting.
Know the threat is real and then act accordingly.
I'm sure the future Police Training in LA, and elsewhere, will reflect that reality.

 

[phylodog]

But (always a but) this was just a woman delivering papers. Not even a Bonnie and Clyde deal. What sense can be made of this. Cowboy actions from our LEO can not help our cause as gun owners.

I agree. I wouldn't want to be wearing a uniform or sitting in a patrol car in LA right now but that doesn't excuse what has happened.

 

[churchmouse]

I agree. I wouldn't want to be wearing a uniform or sitting in a patrol car in LE right now but that doesn't excuse what has happened.

Yup...It is pretty senseless.
I do understand the need to protect ones self under fire but man, what were these cowboys thinking.....just confused.
That woman's family will never have her in their lives again.

Stay safe.

 

[pitbulld45]

I think back to the encounter between LAPD and the armed and armored bank robbers with the drum fed full auto AK's.
Leo could not hit much of anything and most were hunkered down and scared to death from the videos I saw. So many opportunity's for leg shots and the like but all passed on. No tactical sense showed in this encounter.
This is not a slam on LEO just a statement as to their readiness for encounters. Phylodog has mentioned a lack of funding for training. I see this and agree but really, My daughter can hit exactly what she is shooting at at all times.
Yes, there are high levels of anxiety and emotion involved when firing on a real live person but WTF....#1 be sure of target.....#2 be aware of back ground area....3rd hit what you are shooting at....again, refer to #1. This is just so wrong and can not be labeled as defensive in any way. They saw no weapons, were not taking fire and reminds me of the ambush on Clyde Barrow and Bonnie.


Total Bravo Sierra.
Get some training before you become LEO please. Most of those guys are just PI$$ POOR SHOTS>

In this encounter they hit the robbers many many times. They were armored from neck to toe. THey took leg shots. THose guys had taken aircraft aluminum and cevlar and made "ballistic vests" for their arms and legs also

 

[churchmouse]

In this encounter they hit the robbers many many times. They were armored from neck to toe. THey took leg shots. THose guys had taken aircraft aluminum and cevlar and made "ballistic vests" for their arms and legs also

Not aware of that fact...I stand corrected.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Names, addresses and ph#s of all officers involved in shooting should be posted if possible.

Wow. That is pretty low. I see you side with the tactics used by antis who want to publish such info on gun owners. -1 for supporting mob rule tactics.

There is a proper way to review what happened and deal out any discipline. This is not it.

I can find common ground with both of you. We are told that we, no matter our abilities, are not to be trusted with anything that shoots, but the police are infinitely superior to us and are above question. Then, when something like this, or worse, happens, we are given a bunch of drivel of how they should be excused, how tough their job is, etc., that none of us ever hear when things don't go well in our jobs which are often not easy. Often the only result is a paid vacation and a quiet transition out of the limelight into the blue haze. Completely wrecking innocent lives and being allowed to say 'oops', take a paid vacation, and walk away is not acceptable.

On the other hand, 'mob justice' isn't what we are looking for either. I would emphasize that this would not be an issue of the police would do a credible job of taking care of their own business.

Where anonymity becomes a problem and the lack thereof part of the solution is not for masked men to mass at the homes of the offending officers with five-stranded hemp ropes, but rather the social pressure that kept the police honest in generations past. When they were substandard, the community had ways of striking back. The barber could tell them to go cut their own damned hair. Same deal with anyone else they had to deal with. Eventually, this free market social control would do much to keep things in balance. Anonymity cancels out this informal system of social pressure.

 

[phylodog]

We are told that we, no matter our abilities, are not to be trusted with anything that shoots, but the police are infinitely superior to us and are above question.

Who is telling you this though? It isn't me. It isn't my coworkers. It is the misinformed, left leaning lunatics who believe that guns are the problem. Some folks act as if the push for gun control starts with the police in this country and that is not the case. I posted a link a few weeks ago to a story where Obama asked LE to support him in his quest to disarm America and all of the comments (posted by LE officers) were basically telling him to get bent.

There are differences between a police officer using force and a citizens using force. They are relatively minor scope but they are there. I am a police officer. I support the right of the citizens of this country to own and carry firearms. I've been recommending carry to the citizens I serve long before it was cool or INGO existed. I'm tired of being made out to be the enemy.

 

[UncleMike]

Who is telling you this though? It isn't me. It isn't my coworkers. It is the misinformed, left leaning lunatics who believe that guns are the problem. Some folks act as if the push for gun control starts with the police in this country and that is not the case. I posted a link a few weeks ago to a story where Obama asked LE to support him in his quest to disarm America and all of the comments (posted by LE officers) were basically telling him to get bent.

There are differences between a police officer using force and a citizens using force. They are relatively minor scope but they are there. I am a police officer. I support the right of the citizens of this country to own and carry firearms. I've been recommending carry it to the citizens I serve long before it was cool or INGO existed. I'm tired of being made out to be the enemy.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[churchmouse]

Who is telling you this though? It isn't me. It isn't my coworkers. It is the misinformed, left leaning lunatics who believe that guns are the problem. Some folks act as if the push for gun control starts with the police in this country and that is not the case. I posted a link a few weeks ago to a story where Obama asked LE to support him in his quest to disarm America and all of the comments (posted by LE officers) were basically telling him to get bent.

There are differences between a police officer using force and a citizens using force. They are relatively minor scope but they are there. I am a police officer. I support the right of the citizens of this country to own and carry firearms. I've been recommending carry it to the citizens I serve long before it was cool or INGO existed. I'm tired of being made out to be the enemy.

Not taking sides here but I read this a bit differently or at least took it that way. It is our elected officials telling us we are not capable of owning guns. A fact that many among us (current co. excluded of course) do all in there power to expand this point by proving how stupid they can possibly be with a gun. That was my take on the statement anyway.
I do not see LEO as the bad guy and especially most who post on here and weather the storms of LEO bashing. That said it has been quit since serpicostraight stopped posting or was exiled or smashed by the ban-hammer.

What I do see here is act of cowardice by those cowboys in Cali.
Their actions only fan the flames of the anti's in some ways we have yet to see i am sure.

Phylo....you are not the enemy sir.

 

[Rookie]

You say that now, but wait till he gives you a throat hug!

 

[AlphaSig112]

In every organization (Emergency Personnel, Military, Church, Business, Government, Teams) there are good and bad people. I in no way can understand or condone the taking of a life without absolute necessity. I believe there is more to the story than we know with the police involved shootings in Cali. I am not condoning their actions just offering the thought that if my life had been threatened I would treat anything even slightly suspicious as potentially dangerous. Dorner has already ambushed three police officers. He is a deranged psychopath that is more dangerous than you can imagine as he has total buy in to what he is doing. He has justified this killing in his mind and will not stop until he is dead. I work in a relatively comfortable office with very little risk of injury. LEO faces danger all day every day. I simply can't judge what they have done until I know more. I thank our LEO for doing a job that most of us can/would not. I am on the younger side (not yet 30) and I know I have pushed my luck more than once and every time LEO has given me exactly what I needed. I have gotten more crap than I thought I deserved at the time but that punishment helped me become the man I am today. You don't have to approve of what has happened but until more information is available we should really all hold judgement against these officers.

 

[Bunnykid68]

You say that now, but wait till he gives you a throat hug!

Does he use his boots like Frank does?

 

[Rookie]

I didn't get a chance to look before I blacked out.