Miguel's Reloading Journey: calipers

[jedi]

Jedi,

Your OAL results are remarkably consistent. IME, even when being cautious, it is unusual to see such little variance. I just checked 10 of my 380 rounds and had +/- .004" on them. If I were not so polite, I would call BS on your numbers.

I will put it like this: Load long enough and you'll discover that checking AS you load makes a lot more sense. Dies always stay right where you put them...until they don't

Reloading is one of those things that requires in-process QA...not spot-checking after the fact. I think you will find that guys who load using a true progressive press, or even commercial reloaders, check early and often. At the very least, don't you think it would be prudent to check OAL on the 1st, 5th and maybe 50th round? If you're going to have a problem it will usually happen early...which is when you want to catch it, right?

Well I'm still new with the calpiers so it could also be "user error" in getting the numbers. I used the far inside of my calpiers to check all the rounds so as to ensure I was reading from the same place each time so to speak. Not sure if that makes sence or not.

I have noticed that if I use the tip of the calpiers I get one reading and if I use the far inside another reading. I think it's due to the RN bullet I am using and not always centering it.

& please don't be poliet this is INGO after all have you read the political section. They are rude beyond compare.

How critical your OAL is depends entirely on the powder and your load. Some powders get very scary when loaded hot and can be sensitive to seating depths. Other powders won't care at all. Personally I only obsess about OAL on my 10mm nuclear rounds. Remember OAL doesn't tell you seating depth which is what you really need to know. With my medium loads I don't worry about it at all.

Using Winchester 231 @ 5gr.
& correct on the red text. yet no one has answered that for the OP or myself.

How far is too far? Last night I took another round (factory) that I had with a no-name brass casing and that OAL was 1.196 which is way shorter than what I based all my reloads on. Not sure if the bullets on my reload vs this shorter round vs the other factory round I used to base my OAL are all the same. But again it leave me in the dark as to how far to seat the bullets before I have to worry?

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Well I'm still new with the calipers so it could also be "user error" in getting the numbers. I used the far inside of my calipers to check all the rounds so as to ensure I was reading from the same place each time so to speak. Not sure if that makes since or not.

I have noticed that if I use the tip of the calipers I get one reading and if I use the far inside another reading. I think it's due to the RN bullet I am using and not always centering it.

& please don't be poliet this is INGO after all have you read the political section. They are rude beyond compare.



Using Winchester 231 @ 5gr.
& correct on the red text. yet no one has answered that for the OP or myself.

How far is too far? Last night I took another round (factory) that I had with a no-name brass casing and that OAL was 1.196 which is way shorter than what I based all my reloads on. Not sure if the bullets on my reload vs this shorter round vs the other factory round I used to base my OAL are all the same. But again it leave me in the dark as to how far to seat the bullets before I have to worry?

Do not use the thin bladed area of you calipers. Use the thicker inside portion to measure. Also, have you looked at any load data? It will give you a recommended OAL, min and max charge, for a certain bullet type. For example. The Lyman manual suggests a starting charge of 5.2 grains of 231, with an OAL of 1.275", with a 230 grain TM bullet. Hodgdon's data suggests a starting charge of 4.2 grains of 231, with an OAL of 1.200", with a 230 FMJ bullet. Do you see the difference there? I do not want to come off as a prick, as I'm not trying to be. It just sounds like you jumped into reloading, without doing much research. I was studying load data before I even began. I also read my reloading manual as well. Read load data before you load anything, and not just from one source either.

 

[miguel]

So the OAL listed for a specific recipe is always/generally the minimum OAL recommended for that particular recipe, rather than the max?

In the Lyman book, they have a nice, detailed drawing for each caliber which shows the max measures per caliber, which is most always greater than the OAL for any load they list, at least in the calibers I've looked at.

And BTW, thanks for all the feedback, folks!

 

[jedi]

Do not use the thin bladed area of you calipers. Use the thicker inside portion to measure. Also, have you looked at any load data? It will give you a recommended OAL, min and max charge, for a certain bullet type. For example. The Lyman manual suggests a starting charge of 5.2 grains of 231, with an OAL of 1.275", with a 230 grain TM bullet. Hodgdon's data suggests a starting charge of 4.2 grains of 231, with an OAL of 1.200", with a 230 FMJ bullet. Do you see the difference there? I do not want to come off as a prick, as I'm not trying to be. It just sounds like you jumped into reloading, without doing much research. I was studying load data before I even began. I also read my reloading manual as well. Read load data before you load anything, and not just from one source either.

US Patriot I don't feel that you or the others are comining off as "pr----". Even if you told me "Hey st--- a---- you are doing it wrong" I would still be OK with it since I'm still learning. The OP is in the same boat as me.

When I did my 1st 50 rounds I did look at my Lyman book and also my one caliber, 1 round book and found that for a 230 gr FMJ bullet the books were giving charges anywhere from 4.8 to 5.8 for WIN 231 with everyone saying no mor ethan 5.9 as MAX powder. So I figured I do 5, 5.1, 5,2., 5.3, and 5.4 and see which one I liked best all using the same OAL of 1.271 which was based on the factory round I had.

I did not see the OAL data in the load books. I'm sure it was listed but all I looked at was the MAX OAL that LEE had in their diagram with the dies saw it was 1.275 and when measuring my factoyr round it was 1.271 so I took it as well 1.271 is smaller than 1.275 (MAX) so I will go with that.

Like I said the first 50 all worked. I liked the 5.0 gr best so I went with that on the next 350 rounds but the lingering question of why is 1.271 OK and not say 1.15 or 1.20 or 1.21 etc.. Yes I knew that the more you pushed the bullet in the more preassure you cause but I could not find and still can't find what is too far deep.

From your post it appears that depending the the bullet FMJ, TM (?? ??) your starting OAL can be different but the MAX for all is 1.275. Correct?

 

[Broom_jm]

Lyman's 49th lists 5.2 - 5.8 grains of W231 under a 230gr FMJ for 45ACP, with a max OAL of 1.275". Per their pressure trace barrel, this 5.8 grain load creates 16,200psi.

Seat the same bullet to 1.120" (.055" too deep) and QuickLoad predicts pressure will jump to 23,100psi. Seat to 1.150" (.125" too deep) and QL predicts pressure will peak at 32,900. Max pressure, per SAAMI, is 21,000psi.

OAL is not the same for every bullet weight and type. Follow the instructions in the book and realize that bullets seated just a little too long, or way too short, can have catastrophic (KABOOM!) results in a semi-auto handgun. The rim of a US penny is ~.058" thick. Trying to eyeball that dimension, on a large number of rounds, is not something I am going to trust myself to do. YMMV

 

[jedi]

Lyman's 49th lists 5.2 - 5.8 grains of W231 under a 230gr FMJ for 45ACP, with a max OAL of 1.275". Per their pressure trace barrel, this 5.8 grain load creates 16,200psi.

Seat the same bullet to 1.120" (.055" too deep) and QuickLoad predicts pressure will jump to 23,100psi. Seat to 1.150" (.125" too deep) and QL predicts pressure will peak at 32,900. Max pressure, per SAAMI, is 21,000psi.

OAL is not the same for every bullet weight and type. Follow the instructions in the book and realize that bullets seated just a little too long, or way too short, can have catastrophic (KABOOM!) results in a semi-auto handgun. The rim of a US penny is ~.058" thick. Trying to eyeball that dimension, on a large number of rounds, is not something I am going to trust myself to do. YMMV

Are all 230gr FMJ for 45ACP the same size? (ie. the one I measures was .65?? something in lenght I believe).

At 5.8 grains with OAL of 1.275 the preassure is 16,200psi per the book.
So changing the grains or OAL will change the preassure right?
Less grains same OAL = less psi???
More grains same OAL = more psi???
???

 

[jedi]

OAL does change

Well it looks like I got lucky and Lady Luck me.
Here is what I found out from the books I have.

LEE DIE Booklet
230 gr Jacket Bullet
WIN 231 = 4.2 - 5.3 (max) grains
OAL MIN 1.200
OAL MAX 1.275

Lyman 49th Edition
230 gr TMJ
WIN 231 = 5.2 - 5.8 (max) grains
OAL MAX 1.275

One Bullet, One Caliber Book for .45
Hornady Bullets 230 gr FMJ
WIN 231 = 5.00 - 5.7 (MAX) grains
OAL 1.230

Nosler Bullets 230 gr FMJ
WIN 231 = 4.8 -5.8 (MAX) grains
OAL MIN = 1.190
OAL MAX = 1.275

Sierra Bullets 230 gr FMJ, .4515 diameter
WIN 231 = 4.9 - 5.7 (MAX) grains
OAL = 1.270
----

My bullets are from Roze Bullets (Roze Distribution, Inc. - Zero Bullets and Ammunition) and I went with [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]45 Acp (.451 Diameter) - 230 GR FMJ so it looks like those fit right in with the Sierra Bullets and if I'm understanding this correctly. What my OAL should be is 1.270 for a bullet of that shape, weight, and size.


Whereas if I went with a Hornday bullet I should have my OAL at 1.230. Right?
So the 350 rounds I did were OK based on the bullets I have based on the OAL I ended up with (already established that my powder charge is OK).

-Jedi

[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Broom_jm]

Yep, you're good. Are you realizing that not all bullets, even of the same weight and basic design, are not the same? This is even more pronounced with bullets for rifle cartridges, but the case sizes are much larger, and not so sensitive to bullets being seated too deeply.

More powder = more pressure
Less powder = less pressure
Seated deeper than recommended OAL = more pressure
Seated longer than recommended OAL = less pressure

And every combination thereof, which is why I trust ballisticians, and my own experience, to determine when a load is right for a semi-auto handgun.

 

[shibumiseeker]

How far is too far? Last night I took another round (factory) that I had with a no-name brass casing and that OAL was 1.196 which is way shorter than what I based all my reloads on. Not sure if the bullets on my reload vs this shorter round vs the other factory round I used to base my OAL are all the same. But again it leave me in the dark as to how far to seat the bullets before I have to worry?

Last year I tracked down a bulging brass problem in my Cold Delta Elite 10mm to bullet setback combine with less chamber support.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/ammunition_and_reloading/175965-1911_guys_riddle_me_this_brass_issue-5.html

See post 46 for the analysis.

In this case the bullet was seated against the powder and only about .25" of the bullet tip was protruding from the brass. The Powder was PowerPistol which is a well behaved powder. Had that been a hot round it probably would have exploded the gun from the setback.

 

[jedi]

Yep, you're good. Are you realizing that not all bullets, even of the same weight and basic design, are not the same?

Hum.. You are losing me here, sort of.

Basically you are saying I can't pick up brand X bullets where are 230 gr FMJ and use them with the SAME setup (OAL, powder. etc..) as my Roze Bullets which are 230 gr FMJ with .451 diameter because brand X may call for their bullet to have an OAL of say 1.25 as oppose to the 1.271 that my current bullet (of Roze brand) uses.

Is that about what you are trying to say?
So in short so long as I continue to buy the same bullet with same powder and primers I don't have to change my setup. Just measure every now and then to confirm that my press/dies are not moving on me.

But if down the road (I only bought 1000 bullets to start off and am 1/3 used up right now) I want to try the Hornady bullets or Berry bullets at the 230 gr weight I'm going to have to look at what they say the OAL should be for their bullet.

I do know that if I move to a lighter bullet (say 180 gr) or even lead bullet that my seating die will have to change yet again.

Guess for me for now it will be just ordering a whole lot more of the bullet I'm using and keep all my settings as they are.

I'm not interested in making lighter loads or trying a different powder (at this time). I'm just happy that it now cost me .17 per round vs .34 when I was buying factory ammo. That's 50% less per round and that is with using FMJ and only buy 1000 + 1lb of powder and 1K in primers. My little brain is already thinking how much more I can save if I buy in bigger qty and if I go the lead route. The lead route I'm not ready to do yet. I want to load more in FMJ before I go messing with lead.

Thanks all and OP guess you are still behind me in round count.

 

[Broom_jm]

Any time you change any component in your load recipe, you should back off and start load development again. This includes primer, powder, case and bullet. Not all 230gr FMJ bullets are the same.

Now, if you're using a middling charge of a well-behaved powder, like Power Pistol, you can "get away with" using different brands of brass and even swap out bullets, but even then, you are tempting fate. Changing components at random is a bad habit to get into because you simply can't reliably predict what result switching to a new bullet will have on the pressure a given load creates.

The thing to understand is that the bearing surface of one 230gr FMJ will not be identical to the bearing surface of another brand of the same weight and style bullet. You noted that Hornady recommends their bullets be seated deeper than the others. What do you conclude from that? Could it be that their bullet has a longer, more tapering profile, and they want to make sure you keep it out of the lands? As a result, maybe that bullet has less bearing surface and thus, lower pressures than a shorter bullet from another maker?

When it comes to reloading, if you don't know exactly what a given combination of components will do, go back to basics; read the books, start low, work your way up. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, use the data from the bullet company that makes the bullet you are using. They have tested their bullet, which may be a little different than others in that weight range.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Just to reiterate what broom said. For example, I use Winchester 115 grain FMJ bullets for my 9mm loads. If I where to switch to another brand, like Remington for example. I would not load to the same specs as with using Winchester bullets. That's where load development comes back into play.

 

[miguel]

So when a company gives you a generic 230 gr RN, for instance, without specifying a brand, should we be more skeptical of those loads than one that says use a Speer/Hornday/etc. 230gr RN?

 

[U.S. Patriot]

So when a company gives you a generic 230 gr RN, for instance, without specifying a brand, should we be more skeptical of those loads than one that says use a Speer/Hornday/etc. 230gr RN?

No, but lets say the load data lists Speer 230 grain FMJ, but you bought Winchester bullets. Do not assume the data for Speer is good to go for the Winchester bullets. Start at the min charge and OAL recommended an safely work your load up. Until you find what works for your specific gun.

 

[jedi]

No, but lets say the load data lists Speer 230 grain FMJ, but you bought Winchester bullets. Do not assume the data for Speer is good to go for the Winchester bullets. Start at the min charge and OAL recommended an safely work your load up. Until you find what works for your specific gun.

But what is the recommended OAL? The MAX OAL allowed? Seems that would be safe since that gives you the most "space" between powder & bullet and thus no issues of higher pressure.


Recommended OAL in the example that Miguel is asking since you have a no-name bullet that all you have is the weight and dim for.

-Jedi

 

[U.S. Patriot]

But what is the recommended OAL? The MAX OAL allowed? Seems that would be safe since that gives you the most "space" between powder & bullet and thus no issues of higher pressure.


Recommended OAL in the example that Miguel is asking since you have a no-name bullet that all you have is the weight and dim for.

-Jedi

You are using the Lyman manual correct? Turn to page 382, top left corner. It lists the 230 gr. TMJ bullet. Just under that, it lists an OAL of 1.275". That is the OAL they recommend you load too. It does not matter what brand of bullet you use. Just make sure you start at the recommended starting grains they list. Then safetly work up your charge. As every TMJ bullet is not completely the same design. Now, turn to page 380 and look at the cartridge diagram. It lists the max OAL of 1.275". They recommend you do not load any longer than that. Does that clear things up?

 

[jedi]

You are using the Lyman manual correct? Turn to page 382, top left corner. It lists the 230 gr. TMJ bullet. Just under that, it lists an OAL of 1.275". That is the OAL they recommend you load too. It does not matter what brand of bullet you use. Just make sure you start at the recommended starting grains they list. Then safetly work up your charge. As every TMJ bullet is not completely the same design. Now, turn to page 380 and look at the cartridge diagram. It lists the max OAL of 1.275". They recommend you do not load any longer than that. Does that clear things up?

Yes I did see the recommendations of starting OAL in the book. The otehr book (one caliber, one round) as well as LEE's booklet has different OAL starting points as well. <-- not to you but more the book author's!

Why does Lyman say to start at 1.275 and also state that is the MAX as well? Seems rather dumb? Sort of like OK you can start end (1.275) and oh BTW the end point is 1.275. So in essnse don't move off the 1.275. Yet in doing measurements I know 1.271 works in my weapon and other books give 1.200 - 1.275 as a starting point.

 

[shibumiseeker]

You are way overthinking the subject.

 

[jedi]

You are way overthinking the subject.

Probably & that is what I get for having an engineering background.
However your statement does not help me. Explain it to me please. pertty please with sugar on top and sprinkles (in PINK off course)!

 

[shibumiseeker]

Probably & that is what I get for having an engineering background.
However your statement does not help me. Explain it to me please. pertty please with sugar on top and sprinkles (in PINK off course)!

I DID explain it in this thread. With graphs if you read the link.

The synopsis: if you are talking about medium loads then seating depths can reliably vary by several thousandths of an inch with no noticeable effect. If you are loading hot rounds near the maximum (over recommendations by the manuals) then seating depth is something you need to pay attention to especially with a sensitive powder. In 10mm loading, 800x has had issues with spikey pressures when loaded very hot and in this case seating depth is critical.

The manuals, ALL of them, are designed be VERY conservative and if you stay within their guidelines you will never have any problems.

Don't sweat it overmuch. Even being off by a hundreth of an inch from the manual, much as it may offend the engineer in you, won't cause you serious issues.