Need an elk rifle (and deer if DNR approves the new regs)

[ScouT6a]

Don't know what your background is and how much, if any, long range shooting experience that you have. One of the first things you are going to notice on your trip is the vast amount of real estate as compared to Indiana. The smallest piece of ground I hunted in Montana was 400 acres of private ground. There were places that you could see half way across it. It was surrounded by National forest and two sides of BLM land. I also hunted 3,500 acres with one other hunter.
I am very comfortable with long range shooting after 22 1/2 years in combat arms in the Army and doing long range shooting as a hobby. I know guys that a 300 yard shot is a chip shot onto the green but I know lots more that have never shot anything much over 100 yards.
Get as much range time as you can at the actual ranges you expect to hunt at. Also get a range finder that will read to your maximum shooting range and a quality pair of 8 or 10 by 42 compact binoculars. I have a pair of Redfield Rebels in 10x42 and they are great. They can be had for around $120-130.

 

[Hookeye]

3 buds take elk, use .270, .30-06 and .300 mag.
Boring regular stuff

Heard today an old coworker had a custom magnum rifle done........took a 7x7.
Dunno details yet.

 

[ws6duramax]

IMO , I think the .308 is one hell of a round . It will kill anything in North America . Ammo is easy to find , affordable and a nice selection of projectiles . The magnum calibers some others have listed would work just fine as well . The ammo is just a little more pricey .

I just seen in a new bass pro flyer , that had a Savage 10/110 Trophy Hunter package listed for 479.99 or 499.99 after rebate . It comes with a Nikon 3-9x40 glass on it . Savage makes some pretty nice rifles and with the Nikon scope on it I think it would be tough to beat at that price .

 

[jimbo-indy]

A co-worker of mine has a Remington 700 in 300 RUM on consignment at Beach Grove Firearms. Includes a top grade scope too. Used just enough to sight it in. Said he bought it several years ago for an elk hunt but the trip fell apart and he never went. Might be worth a look.

 

[ScouT6a]

Ws6dyramax, .308 Winchester is a hell of a round and it will kill anything in North America if the shooter does his/her part and puts a round through the vitals. I shot a 7.62 caliber sniper rifle in the Army for years and with good equipment and lots of training, could put rounds on target out to 1,200 yards. I wouldn't shoot an 800 pound Elk at that range but 600-700 yards, you bet.

 

[Yeah]

You can't argue with physics, but you can ignore it.

 

[ScouT6a]

Physics facts:
150 grain bullet out of a NATO 7.62x51 round. This bullet at 500 yards still has speed at 1812 fps and stopping power with 1192 ft lbs of energy. Fact: The .308 Winchester 165gr bullet is traveling faster at 1000 yards than the .223 or 7.62x39mm at just 500 yards.
You can ignore that, if you choose to.

 

[Yeah]

Physics facts:
150 grain bullet out of a NATO 7.62x51 round. This bullet at 500 yards still has speed at 1812 fps and stopping power with 1192 ft lbs of energy. Fact: The .308 Winchester 165gr bullet is traveling faster at 1000 yards than the .223 or 7.62x39mm at just 500 yards.
You can ignore that, if you choose to.

Energy is the least of factors in killing anything. Anyone calling it 'stopping power' doesn't have a clue.


I have no idea how dumb bullets perform, so I'll have to take your word for them, but the aforementioned (by me) 75 AMax launched from a 223 Rem chamber at the easily attainable 3000 fps will be doing 1985 fps at 500 yards and 1240 at 1000. By contrast the best 0.308" bullet to be had, a 155 Scenar, off a 308 Win case at 2950 fps will be doing 1990 at 500 and 1220 at 1000.


A shocking contrast of more or less even, in trade for more powder dropped and burned, more ES, more recoil, and about 2x the cost.


I've killed elk with both, so I'm not guessing at what they do when they get there.

 

[451_Detonics]

Granted you can kill an elk with a 22 short however things seldom work out perfectly in a hunt. I would want a round that was heavy enough to accomplish several objectives... break down shoulder bones, leave a good exit wound, or be able to penetrate on a quartering shot to the vitals.

 

[Hookeye]

I'd like to have enough stuff to take whatever decent shot was offered.

 

[Yeah]

Granted you can kill an elk with a 22 short however things seldom work out perfectly in a hunt. I would want a round that was heavy enough to accomplish several objectives... break down shoulder bones, leave a good exit wound, or be able to penetrate on a quartering shot to the vitals.

Weight isn't correlated with acceptable performance in any of those scenarios, but bullet integrity and arrival velocity are.

 

[Yeah]

I'd like to have enough stuff to take whatever decent shot was offered.

Most think that stuff is determined by headstamp. This thread makes that abundantly clear. It isn't nor is it close.

 

[ScouT6a]

Sounds like someone could benefit from a physics lesson. Have a friend throw a 50 gram foam ball at your head at 50 mph. Then have them throw a 7 ounce softball at your head at 50 mph and report back with your results.

 

[seedubs1]

You spoke a lot about how you like 6mm and 7mm. What at is your opinion on the 6.5mm bullets?

You reload, so think bullet first. Even if you didn't, thinking bullet first would be the right move.

People who don't kill elk somehow get the idea into their imaginations that elk are hard to kill. Those of us who knock them over with alarmingly (to elks) regularity are well aware that is far from true. Any 'good' bullet will smash an elk and a whitetail. Both with the same shot if you can get them to line up.

Along those lines there is the pair of 0.243" 105s from Hornady, AMax and HPBT. I tend to shoot more HPBTs than AMax these days, but both are big medicine on quadrupeds. 0.243" 90 grain Lapua Scenars are excellent as well and fit more factory twists, though they tax the bank account a bit more. The 0.284" 162 AMax is maybe the best bullet on offer from anyone anywhere and if I were to do only 1 rifle it'd be something configured to shoot it. In some places the 0.224" 75 AMax is elk legal and is maybe the second best bullet on offer. If you somehow get stuck with a 0.308" whatever, Lapua's 155 Scenar is its only saving grace.

There are a myriad of other capable bullets out there. Some with more reliable terminal effects than the above but that give up a lot of ballistic ground. Most anything on the light-for-diameter end of the spectrum from Barnes is a top notch killing bullet. A guy who can shoot, armed with a handful of 162 AMax and a handful of 120 TSX, could easily kill anything that walks.

Bullet selection will depend on what can be loaded into the lands and still fit the mag box, and what the barrel twist will stabilize. A bolt action single shot should't appeal to anyone and neither should keyholes at any range. Remington 7s and 700s with longish throats can knock the 162 out of contention. Factory twists from Winchester won't spin a 105. Etc etc.

Bullet picked, consider the case to use to launch it. One rifle for everything might rate a short mag, where the 7 WSM rules the roost, but never a belt. There is also almost never a reason to go with a long action, and for an elk/deer rifle there never is. Best choices are something based on either 308 Win or 284 Win. I like 284s as much as anyone, but 308 based brass is far more abundant and allows a few more bullets to squeeze into the mag equation above. Anything x57 based is easy to pass up, brass availability and quality pale by comparison and adding case length to get nothing in return isn't a wise trade.

 

[Yeah]

My sole 6.5mm is a 6.5x284, and it has been a while since I killed anything with it. When I did it was with a 120 TTSX and it was easily capable but lacked in external ballistics.

Since that time Hornady has upgraded the lead and jacket on their line and I've been involved in only the aftermath of slipping 6.5mm AMax into various animals. It seems just as solid a performer as the 105 AMax/HPBT and 162 AMax. In any case, it doesn't give up ground like anything in 0.308".

I keep thinking I should build a 6.5 Creedmore to give it a good wringing out with 140 AMax and 123 Scenars.

 

[Hookeye]

Most think that stuff is determined by headstamp. This thread makes that abundantly clear. It isn't nor is it close.

Same folks probably think certain arrow shafts kill better too.

 

[Yeah]

Sounds like someone could benefit from a physics lesson. Have a friend throw a 50 gram foam ball at your head at 50 mph. Then have them throw a 7 ounce softball at your head at 50 mph and report back with your results.

Good job steering well clear of discussing killing bullets. Next time I want to annoy an elk with a foam ball I will give you a ring.

 

[seedubs1]

One more question for you, Yeah.

I've been thinking about getting a rifle that I can use for essentially everything. I think the 243 is that rifle. The bullet selection seems good, and so does the brass selection since its just a necked down 308.

Mainly, it will be used for deer and coyotes. Do you have any experience on how much some of the lighter 243 bullets tear up coyote pelts? I have a 22-250, but thinking about getting rid of it for a 243 that I can use on deer as well.

 

[Yeah]

I have killed a pile of coyote with 85 TSXs and more than that with 58 VMaxs. Don't think I have done much with anything lighter.

The VMax are moving faster and typically shed some weight, which make for a grander exit. The TSX don't shed and their exit is more docile. It would take some forensics to discern a 22-250 from a 243 using only the holes left behind, given similar bullet construction.

Is anyone buying coyote pelts these days?

 

[seedubs1]

No, I don't sell them. Keep them around and make blankets, etc... Gifts, and keep some for myself. Pelts aren't really worth much monetarily these days it seems.

If I can get comparable results to 22-250, I think I may go that direction.

I have killed a pile of coyote with 85 TSXs and more than that with 58 VMaxs. Don't think I have done much with anything lighter.

The VMax are moving faster and typically shed some weight, which make for a grander exit. The TSX don't shed and their exit is more docile. It would take some forensics to discern a 22-250 from a 243 using only the holes left behind, given similar bullet construction.

Is anyone buying coyote pelts these days?