Negligent discharge: poll

[Kirk Freeman]

What about the 870 at Shootrite?

Have I forgot to tell you guys about the accidental discharge with the 870 at Shootrite? Huh, I thought I had told you guys about it.

Langston, Alabama (Jenny), Shootrite, Triad (2 days pistol, 2 days rifle, 2 days shotgun) with Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch and Tiger McKee of Shootrite:

We we doing one handed drills behind cover. While doing left side, I load my Scattergun Technologies FBI Model 870 with one round of Remington #00. With the weapon on safe, I close the action with my left hand and my right hand is behind my back.

Upon closing the action the weapon discharges clipping a section of the cover. I handed the empty shell to Clint, he ran his finger over the primer and then threw it down. Clint then lectured about the nature of firearm platforms with inertia firing pins and how this can (obviously) happen.

Shook me up pretty good. I have used the 870 platform for decades and have never experienced such a discharge. However, it only takes once and thank goodness the only thing I hit was a mountain in Alabama (Jenny) and a chunk of Tiger's barricade.

Nothing was found to be wrong with the weapon, at Shootrite or when I had the gunsmith (Stu Grell of Attica) tear it apart when I returned to Indiana. I have used the weapon since without any reoccurence.

 

[LEaSH]

"Drop gun because of Mexican Carry = ND
Sand down sear too much = ND
Sear wears out from years of use = AD
Jimenez POS slam fires = AD (mfgr is negligent, shooter is not)"


Is it not the gun owner's responsibility to make certain that their firearm is in complete working order and maintained to the max?

If I give a rifle with a sticky firing pin to a friend and it causes an injury, I can just say, not my problem? Even though I never cleaned it properly?

 

[JettaKnight]

Yes, there is, let's ask Steve Malloy.

Dropped gun on concrete because of lack of holster. This could be argued both ways, but there's an air of negligence.

Don't we have a Hoosier shooter that was gut shot with a SKS because of an AD?

The guy had no clue it'd go full auto. I'll argue AD - he did (almost) everything right.

Ask INGO's Wolfeman about witnessing someone loading a Glock 23 and it going bang.

Dunno 'bout this one.

Read the dozens of threads I have started about people loading or dropping guns and the firearms discharging.

Yeah, one is mine. Rem 700 fired when bolt closed. AD because of tight tolerances or negligence due to improper cleaning - you decide. Personally, AD/ND makes no difference to me because the gun was pointed down range as it should be.

Ask me about the 870 at Shootrite. Go ahead, ask me.

Seriously, I don't know the story, tell me.

 

[JettaKnight]

When two cars hit each other someone is responsible. Someone IS responsible. "Car accident" is a misnomer.

"Sorry lady, it was an accident", doesn't fly. Negligence causes accidents.

I hate the term "traffic accident", I seriously wish LEO and reporters would start using the term "traffic collision".

Someone's negligence caused kirk's 870 to discharge accidentally. I have yet to hear a satisfying explanation to where that negligence might have been.

Are you that hung up on blaming someone?

 

[Pitmaster]

I suspect that most of the people who voted no don't shoot competitively a lot. I've had one at a match and a couple of others. I never broke 2 of the rules for safety at the same time which prevents injury. One was as I was drawing and put my finger on the trigger the gun went off early. After looking at the gun afterwards the reset trigger spring had broken causing the very slight pressure of my finger on the trigger to fire the gun. Another time I was shooting a new rifle and and the gun went off before I was expecting it to. The trigger was much softer than I expected.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Are you that hung up on blaming someone?

I think many people refuse to accept the fact that guns may fire when fingers are not on triggers. It may be denial. It may be a consequence of the spread of the Four Rules. I don't know.

It MUST be someone's fault as no gun would just up and decide to shoot on its own, even though they do.

More I am around guns, the less I trust them.

 

[LEaSH]

Are you that hung up on blaming someone?

No/yes. I think being hung up on blaming somebody would be a little too accusitory. I don't know why the 870 did what it did. But I would sure like to know. Wouldn't you?

I guess being hung up on blaming someone is better (for me) than being dismissive and blaming it a freak of physics and nature. I don't believe in ghosts or gremlins.

 

[LEaSH]

I'm NOT blaming anyone specific. I simply don't know enough about that particular 870.

Kirk, I hope you chop-sawed the thing to death so it could never, ever do whatever it did again.

 

[JettaKnight]

I don't know why the 870 did what it did. But I would sure like to know. Wouldn't you?

I guess being hung up on blaming someone is better (for me) than being dismissive and blaming it a freak of physics and nature. I don't believe in ghosts or gremlins.

I'm a software engineer, that means I deal with gremlins day in and day out. Software is buggy and broken. Hardware is buggy, too (especially in space). You don't always try to figure out why something broke - it cost too much. Instead we put energy into be defensive to handle the unexpected. Design software that handles small failures and bad data. Wrap the software in a layer of code that prevents it from being tampered with or contaminating other code. Learn to dump errors in a safe way. Always have a plan to recover from failure.

The same is for firearms. It's a machine with a huge amount of potential energy and with tight tolerances because tight tolerances yields precision. Do what you can through inspection and proper techniques, but assume there will be the unexpected and plan accordingly by being defensive.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Is this truth or dare? With you guys calling the dare, I am truly afraid. with that in mind I will give an HONEST answer. Yes, I have had many negligent discharges. I have had only one unexpected discharge, which is what I suspect the Question really is.
Firing into the air = negligent
missing the target In the field = negligent
Trophy hunting = negligent (ask my wife)
Rifle fishing = negligent
poaching = negligent
popping each other with BB guns = negligent
I could go on but I bet members could complete this list in no time. I bet most of us have matured lots since using our first gun. I do believe that some of you have really never discharged a firearm negligently, but those who had guns in their youth should think back long and hard before they answer. P.S. I have not committed all the crimes that I listed but I bet I did some that escapes my mind right now.

 

[legamin]

Would like to say "no"....but.....

I was sixteen with my first .22 pistol (yes, legal in those days in that place..)
And I decided to remove the clip and store it in my glove compartment,as I went to clear it with barrel point "down range" at the floor, an ear shattering shot went off and fortunately only went through the exhaust pipe. Could have been my foot or worse. Still don't know why it fired as my finger was not on the trigger.
Been some decades of heavy gun use, military, training and weekly practiceAnd it hasn't ever happened again.

"Practice does NOT make perfect! Only Perfect Practice makes perfect!" -msgt. Wayne G.

 

[686 Shooter]

Of all of the stories I've read, been told, or witnessed, they all have one thing in common, an outside force caused the gun to discharge. Not one time have I ever heard of a gun sitting on a shelf or in a safe, etc. and just discharge. All of the stories either had someone racking a round in the chamber, the gun was dropped, something rubbed the trigger, I just closed the cylinder, etc..

 

[LEaSH]

I'm a software engineer, that means I deal with gremlins day in and day out. Software is buggy and broken. Hardware is buggy, too (especially in space). You don't always try to figure out why something broke - it cost too much. Instead we put energy into be defensive to handle the unexpected. Design software that handles small failures and bad data. Wrap the software in a layer of code that prevents it from being tampered with or contaminating other code. Learn to dump errors in a safe way. Always have a plan to recover from failure.

The same is for firearms. It's a machine with a huge amount of potential energy and with tight tolerances because tight tolerances yields precision. Do what you can through inspection and proper techniques, but assume there will be the unexpected and plan accordingly by being defensive.

Absolutely. Follow the safety rules, of course.

But if I chamber my 870 in a safe direction + it discharges + and the slug bounces off a rock on the side of Jenny mountain + and goes though the windshield of a software engineer = what then?

I bet that software engineer would think for a while, and then want to know why that 870 did what it did. Or maybe the software engineer would just shrug and chalk it up to being to expensive to determine the cause.

Accidents are within our control when we keep our attention tuned to not being negligent with every screw and roll pin on our 870's.

It could happen to me tomorrow - but I'm going to find out why. If I can't find out why, I'll play it safe and chop that sucker into a million pieces.

 

[nomadicmutt]

Maybe I attract bad guns, but I have had three AD's. During all three I was following the rules of gun safety.

Two were with a bad .22 with an ooooooold sear: when releasing the slide, the pin slipped and the gun fired downrange.

The third was with a 12-gauge auto shotgun I borrowed at the range. While loading, the gun fired downrange and cycled with my thumb inside.
The RSO came and chewed me out before the gun fired (on its own) again in his hands.
Upon investigation, the safety spring was "misplaced", rendering the mechanical safety useless. On top of that, it hadn't been cleaned in years, so the sear just slipped at the slightest jostling (like loading).
Scared the crap out of everyone involved, including the RSO.

But I maintain that I haven't had a NEGLIGENT discharge. None of the involved firearms were mine, and at no point did I violate safe handling procedures.

 

[JettaKnight]

But if I chamber my 870 in a safe direction + it discharges + and the slug bounces off a rock on the side of Jenny mountain + and goes though the windshield of a software engineer = what then?

Then it wasn't a safe direction, was it?

I bet that software engineer would think for a while, and then want to know why that 870 did what it did. Or maybe the software engineer would just shrug and chalk it up to being to expensive to determine the cause.

Not to get too far of topic, but one time errors that can't be reproduced are extremely hard to fix/diagnose. Sure, if a program crashes, I'll use some logic and intuition to try and diagnose it, but I'll also analyze why the failure was allowed to crash the system.

Ever use a Microsoft product.

 

[indiucky]

Never had it happen but if I did I think it would go something like this.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHrBxRvu3Bs

 

[LEaSH]

Then it wasn't a safe direction, was it?

Not to get too far of topic, but one time errors that can't be reproduced are extremely hard to fix/diagnose. Sure, if a program crashes, I'll use some logic and intuition to try and diagnose it, but I'll also analyze why the failure was allowed to crash the system.

Ever use a Microsoft product.

Is the difference between an AD and a ND:
Where the 870 is pointed or what made it discharge in the first place?

Stop trying to compare firearms negligence with software design. You impress no one with your profession, it's commonplace and uninteresting.

I'll never understand people like you. You want to have a conversation about gun safety but you refuse to think that guaranteed ND prevention is an attainable goal. "Accidents" happen to those that don't strive enough to prevent them - ultimately that's negligence.

You can plug your ears and convince yourself otherwise, you're boring the hell out of me.

 

[JettaKnight]

Is the difference between an AD and a ND:
Where the 870 is pointed or what made it discharge in the first place?

Stop trying to compare firearms negligence with software design. You impress no one with your profession, it's commonplace and uninteresting.

I'll never understand people like you. You want to have a conversation about gun safety but you refuse to think that guaranteed ND prevention is an attainable goal. "Accidents" happen to those that don't strive enough to prevent them - ultimately that's negligence.

You can plug your ears and convince yourself otherwise, you're boring the hell out of me.

AW, SNAP! Apparently it's on...

And, you sir, cannot accept that accidents do indeed happen. I for one want to be there when one of your perfectly working guns has a problem and you try to explain it away and blame someone else.

And for the record, my commonplace and uninteresting to me too.

 

[halfmileharry]

Nope! "daddy didn't raise no fools" He learned us good on guns!

 

[hammer24]

My answer is.....kind of??? Years ago, fresh out of college I gained posession of an old 1906 slide action .22. It had sat in a closet for fifty years and was completely crudded up. Took it down and cleaned it to the best of my ability at the time. Something didn't seem right with it, but I took it out and loaded a few rounds in the tube magazine. Upon racking the first round it fired upon closing! I was nervous about it happening so I had the rifle pointed into a dirt burm. I looked at the rifle, hammer was still back! How did it fire? the firing pin was protruding from the bolt and stuck that way. Apparently it had been taken apart at one point and put back together incorrectly (probably the reason it had sat in a closet for half a decade.) Did the gun fire? yes. Did I intend for it to fire? No.