Nickel boron BCGs - hype, or worth it?

[Jackson]

I think Stellite is a nickel-boron or chromium-boron or chromium-cobalt (or whatever depending on specific grade) material that is sometimes applied as a coating by thermal spray. I think Nickel-boron is a material applied to the substrate by electroless plating (based on a quick google search). It is also a material and deposits a coating of nickel-boron on the substrate. It is the hard and smooth properties of the nickel that give it low friction. Maybe the material is not as analagous to stellite as I thought, but it does appear to be a coating.

 

[Hop]

Never mind. Googled.

 

[xM3RC1L3SS1x]

I guess I'll have to start thinkin about buyin one now.

 

[billt]

Nickel Boron coating offers a major improvement in lubricity in AR-15 bolt carrier groups over cheaper phosphate type coatings. Anyone who thinks that has anything to do with hype does not understand the process, or wants to for that matter. We could go back to bias ply tires and leaded gas. Why not, they "worked" for decades?

 

[Hop]

I had been looking at doing some non-firearm applications for this coating and had found a DIY kit here:
Boron Nitride Electroless Plating Kit - 1.5 Gal - PTFE & Boron Nitride Kits - Nickel Plating Kits - Electroplating & Anodizing - Caswell Inc

With a good write up (although the pic links are dead) over on AR15.com here:
Electroless Nickel at home. - Page 1 - AR15.COM

 

[Colts]

Potentially worth it . . .

NiB is used on "greaseless guns" but I would still use grease!

I have seen hype in some of the marketing from the chemical manufacturers . . .

For $10 difference, I might try (but would not expect it to be fully corrosion resistant).

 

[sloughfoot]

I own both mil-spec and nitride. I use both types heavily. I don't see any diffference in operation or cleaning.

Both types require lube. I use breakfree CLP.

I have one that is hard chromed also. It needs lube also. I use breakfree CLP.

It is a silly argument over a part the just houses the bolt. The bolt is the important part.

 

[billt]

It is a silly argument over a part the just houses the bolt. The bolt is the important part.

And that is coated as well.

 

[Hop]

I own both mil-spec and nitride. I use both types heavily. I don't see any diffference in operation or cleaning.

Both types require lube. I use breakfree CLP.

I have one that is hard chromed also. It needs lube also. I use breakfree CLP.

It is a silly argument over a part the just houses the bolt. The bolt is the important part.

The part with the most metal to metal contact and highest load is probably the cam pin right? Except for magazines, what causes the most failures in military applications? Does anyone know?

My stuff runs near perfect with just CLP too so I'm not 100% sold on needing NiBor but in a WROL situation when there's no time to clean or lube, how long can an AR run without failure? I'm not real concerned in how easy it is to clean more so in does it reduce failures. Now is it time to use NiBor? Now is that extra $25 worth it? Or maybe it's past all this and time to run an AK?

OMG, what about a NiBor AK???

 

[Jackson]

All true, and par for this particular hole, but IMHO you can almost never answer the question of whether something is "worth it" for anyone but yourself.

Indeed. I cannot tell you whether something is worth the cost to you. I might be able to help you make the decision by relaying my personal experience or educating you on the technical merits of the product. I think that discussion is worthwhile.

There wasnt much of either in this thread.

 

[billt]

I run lubricant on Nickel Boron as well as Phosphate. That really isn't the issue. All weapons require lube. Nickel Boron requires less, and can run without any in an emergency. Not much different than running a roller cam and tappets in a V-8. You still have to use motor oil. However the coefficient of friction is less, no matter how you look at it. Less friction in any moving metal machinery is a good thing.

 

[Txlur]

Will a phosphated (read: with surface geometry) actually allow more lubricant to adhere to its surface vs coated stuff? My only worry would be getting some garbage metal coated, just to have a failure later - lube issues don't worry me. Mobil 1 20w50.

I noticed a big difference in weight and finish on some 'coated' bolts and carriers. Think they were all gtg? I'm guessing not.

 

[sgreen3]

They are worth the extra $ for sure. So easy to clean.

 

[Fargo]

The part with the most metal to metal contact and highest load is probably the cam pin right? Except for magazines, what causes the most failures in military applications? Does anyone know?

My stuff runs near perfect with just CLP too so I'm not 100% sold on needing NiBor but in a WROL situation when there's no time to clean or lube, how long can an AR run without failure? I'm not real concerned in how easy it is to clean more so in does it reduce failures. Now is it time to use NiBor? Now is that extra $25 worth it? Or maybe it's past all this and time to run an AK?

OMG, what about a NiBor AK???

Parts failures or stoppages?

 

[Bfish]

I run one in one of my AR's and love it! I say go for it, especially when comparing prices right now!

 

[billt]

My only worry would be getting some garbage metal coated, just to have a failure later.

Is there some reason you wouldn't worry about the same thing happening with a Phosphate coated bolt?

 

[Txlur]

Is there some reason you wouldn't worry about the same thing happening with a Phosphate coated bolt?

My point is a known good manufacturer will list their materials. And no, I'm not worried about Colt or BCM. Foolish? Maybe. Maybe ill file off some coating and hit them with the PMI gun.

 

[Jackson]

My point is a known good manufacturer will list their materials. And no, I'm not worried about Colt or BCM. Foolish? Maybe. Maybe ill file off some coating and hit them with the PMI gun.

Assuming you mean XRF... Then you'll have an idea of chemistry but it wont tell you anything about the coating process, bond/adhession, grain structure, or that hardening, heat treating, or coating processes were followed.

Also, it takes a fairly high-end analyzer to differentiate between most carbon steels, including hardened tool steels like a bolt might be made from.

 

[Txlur]

Assuming you mean XRF... Then you'll have an idea of chemistry but it wont tell you anything about the coating process, bond/adhession, grain structure, or that hardening, heat treating, or coating processes were followed.

Also, it takes a fairly high-end analyzer to differentiate between most carbon steels, including hardened tool steels like a bolt might be made from.

i work in the NDE/NDT field. I'm pretty sure I can get an accurate breakdown of any metal as long as I can remove the coating properly. I'm absolutely sure that one coated bolt (came with my fake Colt carrier) was lighter, and looked to have a different finished appearance (after cycling/coating immediately rubbed off).

Innovex/niiton PMI gun, I work in the petrochemical/power generation industries. I'm not talking about the coating, which may be BS on my Folt carrier, I'm talking about the strength and metallurgy of the bolt underneath.

 

[Jackson]

i work in the NDE/NDT field. I'm pretty sure I can get an accurate breakdown of any metal as long as I can remove the coating properly. I'm absolutely sure that one coated bolt (came with my fake Colt carrier) was lighter, and looked to have a different finished appearance (after cycling/coating immediately rubbed off).

Innovex/niiton PMI gun, I work in the petrochemical/power generation industries. I'm not talking about the coating, which may be BS on my Folt carrier, I'm talking about the strength and metallurgy of the bolt underneath.

Cool. I also work in that industry. I have a couple older Nitons in a drawer at work. All I am saying is chemical makeup is not the only factor in the quality of a material. Also, depending on the device and specific alloy library, there are limitations to what an XRF analyzer can tell you about the chemistry.

So PMI may tell you the material is right, but it could still be a crap bolt. That's all I'm saying.