On Auto Dealership Service Departments

[thunderchicken]

Athough I do not work on the commercial side, I do work at a dealer. I would tell you to avoid at all costs. Finding a good technician at a dealership is really hard. Finding one that cares is nearly impossible. Almost none of them that I have talked to actually understand how the components on the vehicle work. They look at a computer and it tells them which parts to change. The guys at the independent shops usually have a better understanding and are willing to go the extra mile where the dealer tech may just give up since it wasn't in the computer. As stated already, the dealer will have access to certain things the independent guys won't. Hope you get this resolved!

There's some truth in what you are saying here but I think it's a bit deeper than it may look on the surface. Dealers can find very qualified tech's there are plenty out there. Big problem is warranty related, manufacturers keep expanding their warranties and that cuts the tech's pay. Most shops pay tech's on flat rate. So if a job has a book time of 5hrs they can hussle to get it done in 3 but get paid for 5. Now dealers screw the tech's by having their own labor book times so that same job that pay 5hrs when the customer pays comes in under warranty, the warranty time is only 2hrs they only get paid for 2hrs even if something happens and the job takes 5 or 6 hrs. Which results in working for free. Now most manufacturers require any tech doing warranty work be factory certified for that job area, so training is there. As for the scan tool diagnosis, that is a mis understood thing. The scan tool gives information based on the conditions that were present when the malfunction occurred. It doesn't usually tell what part to replace, it points you in the right direction. Now after seeing a problem several times it gets associated with that fault code and often a part gets thrown on based on probability. Now in general a tech should pinpoint the problem not just replace parts on probability but we all do it sometimes.

 

[PaulF]

I spent my career working exclusively on European imports, so I'm not sure this will be totally relevant to your situation, but...

...I spent the first dozen years or so of my career working for dealerships, now I am at an Independent European specialist. The biggest difference, for me, is tools and technical support. I worked on Volkswagen brands during my dealership tenure, and the repair information they provided was...well it was just awful. VW knew that anything they allowed the technicians to see would eventually make its way into the hands of the public, and VW is VERY jealous of its technological "secrets", so they keep repair information sparse, difficult to locate, and (whenever possible) poorly translated. They make up for this by having a robust "on-demand" support system where detailed technical support can be had by making a phone call. If a technician gets really stuck on an issue a technician can receive on-site help from VW in the form of a visit from an experienced diagnostic technician (FOM), up to direct contact from actual humorless German automotive engineers. That's always fun.

And the tools...we used to joke that Volkswagen was a tool company that sold cars to broaden their tool market. They forced their dealers to buy tens of thousands of dollars worth of specialty tools and equipment every year to keep up with new manufacturing trends and model requirements. On the new cars it seems like every single procedure requires some kind of special tool.

In the aftermarket, we have to source and purchase those tools ourselves, and the costs are ridiculous.

Every technician has his strengths and his weaknesses. Even the best tech can get stuck in tunnel vision or a feedback loop. If it were my car, I would let my trusted mechanic work the problem until he either finds the source, or decides he has exhausted his resources and talent without success. Sometimes all it takes is a fresh set of eyes, or talking it through with another technician. That's the best thing about the dealership, it is a collection of individuals who are largely knowledgable and experienced in the same topic, and it helps to spread the load of difficult diagnoses.

 

[Ballistix]

I'm late to the party, and I didn't read every post, but have you changed the ignition switch?

The ignition switch is a common and known problem that causes the same symptoms you described.
Electrical (gauges, lights, etc.) working, but won't crank. The switch is inexpensive and relatively simple to change.

With the electrics working there should be enough juice, and there should be at minimum, a click when the key is turned.
When the ignition switch doesn't make contact, the starter will not engage.

Hope that helps in some way.

 

[indyjohn]

I'm late to the party, and I didn't read every post, but have you changed the ignition switch?

The ignition switch is a common and known problem that causes the same symptoms you described.
Electrical (gauges, lights, etc.) working, but won't crank. The switch is inexpensive and relatively simple to change.

With the electrics working there should be enough juice, and there should be at minimum, a click when the key is turned.
When the ignition switch doesn't make contact, the starter will not engage.

Hope that helps in some way.

Thanks. I'll add that to my list of inexpensive parts that can and do wear out over time. How many times in a vehicle's lifetime do you think an ignition key is turned? Say twice per day, five days a week, four weeks a month, twelve months a year, and the truck is 7 years old. 16,800 is not a bad duty cycle and then you add Saturdays & Sundays for 7 years.

 

[churchmouse]

Thanks. I'll add that to my list of inexpensive parts that can and do wear out over time. How many times in a vehicle's lifetime do you think an ignition key is turned? Say twice per day, five days a week, four weeks a month, twelve months a year, and the truck is 7 years old. 16,800 is not a bad duty cycle and then you add Saturdays & Sundays for 7 years.

I had to replace the switch on my last service van. It wore out not only the switch but the key as well.

 

[Cameramonkey]

There's some truth in what you are saying here but I think it's a bit deeper than it may look on the surface. Dealers can find very qualified tech's there are plenty out there. Big problem is warranty related, manufacturers keep expanding their warranties and that cuts the tech's pay. Most shops pay tech's on flat rate. So if a job has a book time of 5hrs they can hussle to get it done in 3 but get paid for 5. Now dealers screw the tech's by having their own labor book times so that same job that pay 5hrs when the customer pays comes in under warranty, the warranty time is only 2hrs they only get paid for 2hrs even if something happens and the job takes 5 or 6 hrs. Which results in working for free. Now most manufacturers require any tech doing warranty work be factory certified for that job area, so training is there. As for the scan tool diagnosis, that is a mis understood thing. The scan tool gives information based on the conditions that were present when the malfunction occurred. It doesn't usually tell what part to replace, it points you in the right direction. Now after seeing a problem several times it gets associated with that fault code and often a part gets thrown on based on probability. Now in general a tech should pinpoint the problem not just replace parts on probability but we all do it sometimes.

QFT.

Skillman can eat a bag of D***s. I complained about my TPS erroring out regularly every time I took it in for service on an unrelated item. (3x) Each time it was "Its not throwing a code, so we dont know whats wrong. are you sure it isnt [insert somebody else's problem like bad tires]?" Even showing them a cellphone video of it throwing the error while sitting in my driveway before I even started rolling. They never tried actually fixing the problem, only blaming their inability to correct it on a lack of concrete evidence of what part was broken. (no code) Until they had some kind of proof, they wouldn't touch anything.

Finally as I thought the warranty was about to expire I took it in for one last go so I could really push the issue hard. Same thing. Not sure what they could fix without a code, but they would take a look anyway as a courtesy.

As I was waiting for my ride, they realized while my powertrain was still under warranty, electronics expired already and she warned me that it would cost me. I reluctantly agreed. Suddenly the service writer's demeanor changed and she was ready to start replacing parts on my dime until the problem went away. For the first time ever she assured me that they would get to the bottom of it.

When I saw that she didnt care that she couldnt fix it on her dime, but she was more than willing to spend *MY* money, I told her to get my keys because I was done with them. I'll ignore it or just put a piece of tape over the damned light.

Between that treatment, and the constant "sucker" letters they send me that are an insult to my intelligence ( "handwritten" notes that are actually printed letters using script fonts, fake email printouts from managers telling the sales weasel he really wants to buy my car, etc.) I'm done with them.

And the best part was when she tried pressuring me with a safety angle. "Are you really sure? Its not safe you know. I'd hate for you to just ignore it when you might have an issue. Thats dangerous!" I looked at her and said "Ive dealt with this problem for the past 60,000 miles. This is my first car with TPS. So prior to this, I drove cars for over 25 years without the luxury of a TPS and survived. Im sure I'll be fine."

 

[Ballistix]

QFT.

Skillman can eat a bag of D***s. I complained about my TPS erroring out regularly every time I took it in for service on an unrelated item. (3x) Each time it was "Its not throwing a code, so we dont know whats wrong. are you sure it isnt [insert somebody else's problem like bad tires]?" Even showing them a cellphone video of it throwing the error while sitting in my driveway before I even started rolling. They never tried actually fixing the problem, only blaming their inability to correct it on a lack of concrete evidence of what part was broken. (no code) Until they had some kind of proof, they wouldn't touch anything.

Finally as I thought the warranty was about to expire I took it in for one last go so I could really push the issue hard. Same thing. Not sure what they could fix without a code, but they would take a look anyway as a courtesy.

As I was waiting for my ride, they realized while my powertrain was still under warranty, electronics expired already and she warned me that it would cost me. I reluctantly agreed. Suddenly the service writer's demeanor changed and she was ready to start replacing parts on my dime until the problem went away. For the first time ever she assured me that they would get to the bottom of it.

When I saw that she didnt care that she couldnt fix it on her dime, but she was more than willing to spend *MY* money, I told her to get my keys because I was done with them. I'll ignore it or just put a piece of tape over the damned light.

Between that treatment, and the constant "sucker" letters they send me that are an insult to my intelligence ( "handwritten" notes that are actually printed letters using script fonts, fake email printouts from managers telling the sales weasel he really wants to buy my car, etc.) I'm done with them.

And the best part was when she tried pressuring me with a safety angle. "Are you really sure? Its not safe you know. I'd hate for you to just ignore it when you might have an issue. Thats dangerous!" I looked at her and said "Ive dealt with this problem for the past 60,000 miles. This is my first car with TPS. So prior to this, I drove cars for over 25 years without the luxury of a TPS and survived. Im sure I'll be fine."

I'm guessing that you are referring to the TPMS or tire pressure monitor system?
They don't store a code, they only show the error. Either the sensor is bad, or it needs to be reset.
Some vehicles only show the tire pressure error and other actually identify the offending sensor.
Any tire dealer can reset the sensors and they can also change them if they are faulty.
It's a simple process to reset them, but depending on the style of the sensor, they can be expensive to replace.

If you are referring to TPS or throttle position sensor, there are simple tests to determine voltage and continuity.
They are easy to change, but based from your comment on tires, I don't believe this is what you were speaking of.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Yes. Tire pressure. Kia uses a basic "a tire is low" light. No specifics like which tire or what the exact pressure reading is like a Traverse I drove the past couple weeks.

 

[Ballistix]

Thanks. I'll add that to my list of inexpensive parts that can and do wear out over time. How many times in a vehicle's lifetime do you think an ignition key is turned? Say twice per day, five days a week, four weeks a month, twelve months a year, and the truck is 7 years old. 16,800 is not a bad duty cycle and then you add Saturdays & Sundays for 7 years.

I had to replace the switch on my last service van. It wore out not only the switch but the key as well.

The part in question isn't the lock cylinder or tumbler as some call it. It's an electrical switch that controls the acc., ignition, and cranking. It's plug and play and costs $16 from RA or around $35 from a local parts supplier. Here is a link to the part from RA... More Information for ACDELCO D1485F

This can be changed by yourself if you are even slightly inclined.

 

[Gary119]

Yes. Tire pressure. Kia uses a basic "a tire is low" light. No specifics like which tire or what the exact pressure reading is like a Traverse I drove the past couple weeks.

I also thought you were talking Throttle Position Sensor.

Were you running Nitrogen? If not, in cold weather a tire with air pressure that is right on the point of being low the change in temperature of only a couple degrees will throw the light on. As you drive and the tire gets warm the pressure will rise and shut the light off. Did you check the air pressure in the tires?

 

[Ballistix]

Yes. Tire pressure. Kia uses a basic "a tire is low" light. No specifics like which tire or what the exact pressure reading is like a Traverse I drove the past couple weeks.

Do any of your tires actually lose pressure?
If they do lose pressure, there is a leak and the TPMS is working properly, but if the pressure remains as it's set, the TPMS is faulty.
As you have realized after 60,000 miles, it won't affect anything, other than it's annoying. Some vehicles have the accompanying dinging to the error message.

 

[churchmouse]

The part in question isn't the lock cylinder or tumbler as some call it. It's an electrical switch that controls the acc., ignition, and cranking. It's plug and play and costs $16 from RA or around $35 from a local parts supplier. Here is a link to the part from RA... More Information for ACDELCO D1485F

This can be changed by yourself if you are even slightly inclined.

I had to replace the ignition tumbler and the switch you mentioned. Easy peasy.

 

[Gary119]

Good evening INGO,

Do Auto Dealership Service Departments (Chevy in this case) have access to brand-specific diagnostic tools that Independent Service/Repair shops do not? I'm talking about tools beyond the ODB-II code scanners; I'm asking about computer or electronic-based equipment that are programmed for a GMC/Cadillac/Chevrolet ECM and subordinate systems.

My Suburban has an issue that my Small Business Independent Service Shop has not been able to determine its root cause. For a substantial period of time, I have been taking the approach of more time - less money or 'it may take them longer to fix but I will spend significantly less than if I took it to the dealership'. They have done good, reasonably priced, reasonable turnaround work for me over the course of about a year & a half.

Brought it home this week with a "I think we got it" statement. This morning that proved to be not true. I'm growing somewhat weary of this cycle and I am concerned so is the mechanic. But, If Chevy can't bring any better tools to the table, I'm reluctant to hand over my truck and a blank check.

What say you, INGO?

Yes, dealerships have not only equipment but the factory reps to fall back on. Look at it this way your tech may be a really great tech (I am not knocking him whatsoever). But look at all the different makes of cars, models of those makes and options on those models (that gets added to every year) Would be kinda hard for one person to know what to do on every single one, don't you think?

You didn't say who is footing the bill for the trips back to "get it right". If you are, are you really saving money? If he is eating the comebacks he is losing money. Why not ask him what you should, something like, hey (name) you have been a great guy about this but I don't want you to get frustrated with it. I want to keep you as a tech but if it would be better for you, would you prefer I take this to the dealership?

It could be he is going out of his way to please you and would be relieved if you did take this "one" job there.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Do any of your tires actually lose pressure?
If they do lose pressure, there is a leak and the TPMS is working properly, but if the pressure remains as it's set, the TPMS is faulty.
As you have realized after 60,000 miles, it won't affect anything, other than it's annoying. Some vehicles have the accompanying dinging to the error message.

Negative. All tires are always above the limit when I get the error. Sometimes hitting a bump would trigger the error. Sometimes simply starting the car would trigger the error.

And to put a finer point on it, Kia has two alerts:
normal, when the TPMS light illuminates solid to indicate a low pressure condition. (this is not what I was getting)
Error, when the TPMS light flashes for 60 seconds, to indicate an error state then goes solid.

I was always getting the error, not the normal condition. And every time I would check pressure just to make sure, pressure was fine. I would get the normal light from time to time when a tire would go low, but that was not the norm.

But enough about my car... Back to the OP's issue.

/hijack

 

[thunderchicken]

Camera- not sure about how Kia 's system works but some TPMS systems monitor the spare tire as well. Personally I pretty much hate TPMS, to me it's yet another gubment reg we have to deal with because some people are to lazy to have tire pressure checked occasionally or are unable to feel that they are driving on a flat tire.
Never dealt with any of Ray Skilsaw's dealerships but I can say too often many service advisers/techs say it can't be fixed without having a code set. Reality is that's a load of crap.

 

[thunderchicken]

By the way I see this often when someone's post is being referenced specifically, what does QFT stand for??

 

[AGarbers]

I'm not sure about the tools. But I know the GM folks have bulletins and knowledge bases they can access to look for similar problems that have already been seen and fixed. I don't know if independent guys can get to them or not. When I was a full time GM employee, I could get to some of them but there was an entire other section(s) of the web site I was not given access to.

This is what I was thinking. I work for a mega-brand-HVAC branch. We get service letters and updated manuals on all of our equipment, as well as factory tech support that other HVAC businesses wouldn't have access to. If an issue has been discovered, we would get a bulletin pointing out the symptoms and how to correct it. I would think car dealerships would as well.

 

[DRob]

There is likely a forum for every make and model of vehicle on the planet. I made this miraculous discovery when the wife's Pontiac Vibe "check engine" light came on and the shop where she was getting an oil change wanted to charge her $500 to replace an oxygen sensor. An inquiry on a Vibe owner's forum led me to the actual problem which was a loose gas cap.

 

[Cameramonkey]

By the way I see this often when someone's post is being referenced specifically, what does QFT stand for??

Quoted For Truth.

 

[thunderchicken]

Thanks. Been scratching my head trying to figure that out