Open Carrier ends up on wrong end of his own gun

[Rambler]

They who? Most criminals would wait for a visibly armed citizen to leave before robbing a place.

Do you have statistics that would suggest otherwise?

Where did you get your insight into how criminals think? Are you suggesting that they use common sense?

I've always thought that as open carry becomes more common, things like this are bound to happen. It seems that we are staring to see it now. I recall another story where a devoted open carrier had his firearm stolen off of him while carrying. Open carry has always been an extremely small minority of people who actually carry handguns, in most parts of the nation, and nobody compiles statistics particularly in the category of open carriers being victimized, to my knowledge.

I do, however, know of one statistic that I'm sure of. 100% of open carriers have played their hand if they are ever caught up in a violent situation that they may have avoided if they had not been visibly armed. But each person has the right to lead with their chin, if they so choose. Personally, I prefer to be the gray man.

 

[gglass]

The anti-OC crowd has been waiting years for a story like this. Now we'll never hear the end of it.


The moral of the story: Don't chase somebody if they just stole your gun.

The rest of the story.

 

[ATM]

Where did you get your insight into how criminals think?

Straight from the criminals. I know most people would rather fantasize about what they would do if they were a criminal, but that doesn't always lead to realistic conclusions.

Are you suggesting that they use common sense?

Often, yes. They still generally have a strong survival instinct even if their values are warped.

I do, however, know of one statistic that I'm sure of. 100% of open carriers have played their hand if they are ever caught up in a violent situation that they may have avoided if they had not been visibly armed. But each person has the right to lead with their chin, if they so choose. Personally, I prefer to be the gray man.

How many concealed carriers have hidden their hand to blend in with the unarmed and got caught up in a violent situation that they may have avoided if they had been visibly armed?

To each their own.

 

[rugertoter]

And this one time...at band camp...

 

[buford t justice]

OC vs CC=worse than religious debate

 

[Rambler]

Straight from the criminals. I know most people would rather fantasize about what they would do if they were a criminal, but that doesn't always lead to realistic conclusions.

Often, yes. They still generally have a strong survival instinct even if their values are warped.

Having worked several years in the corrections field, I can tell you that the only thing unrealistic is to expect the mind of a criminal, which is often in an altered state (high, drunk, psychotic) during their most violent actions to think rationally. Funny how many of them have no compunction at all with shooting at police, but have "instincts" that make them fear a shootout with open carriers.

You must be hanging out with some pretty astute criminals.

 

[Rambler]

OC vs CC=worse than religious debate

At least OC vs CC is applicable to the real world.

 

[ATM]

OC vs CC=worse than religious debate

Yet I always see the same "side" of that "debate" on the defense.

I wonder why that is?

 

[ATM]

...Funny how many of them have no compunction at all with shooting at police, but have "instincts" that make them fear a shootout with open carriers.

You must be hanging out with some pretty astute criminals.

You must not be asking pertinent questions or have jumped to the wrong conclusions from their answers.

The majority admit that they avoid engaging armed citizens more than they avoid engaging police. It does make sense if you think about it.

 

[Rambler]

You must not be asking pertinent questions or have jumped to the wrong conclusions from their answers.

The majority admit that they avoid engaging armed citizens more than they avoid engaging police. It does make sense if you think about it.

I'm truly interested in where you obtained this information. Have you interviewed the majority of violent criminals? I have not, but the ones I have worked with did not exactly promote a vision of reasonable thought. Most never thought they would be caught, and do not learn from their experiences.

Have you simply read something on the internet, or have you worked in a field with continual contact with the criminal element?

 

[ATM]

I'm truly interested in where you obtained this information...

NRA-ILA :: The Armed Criminal In America

It's rather interesting. I don't ever want to underestimate criminals just because they weigh their decisions differently than I do.

 

[Rambler]

NRA-ILA :: The Armed Criminal In America

It's rather interesting. I don't ever want to underestimate criminals just because they weigh their decisions differently than I do.

Interesting read, thank you. It is, however, a 26 year old study, and did not specifically correlate to open carry as we know it today. Carry laws were more restrictive in 1982-82 across the nation, when this survey was taken, and I doubt that encountering an openly carrying citizen was even a notion back then. Criminals largely victimized each other (this is still true today), and know who's armed and who is not within their circle of operation. Note how many pictures of the people murdered in Indianapolis every year are jail mugshots. In fact, I doubt that it's a serious notion amongst the criminal element today, as open carry is still a small minority of people who carry handguns regularly.

The study shows a disconnect between what criminals back then SAID they would do (high percentages would avoid committing a crime due to a possible armed victim), and what they ACTUALLY did (only 40% actually avoided doing a crime because they thought the victim was possibly armed.) If anything, today's thug seems to have less sense than perhaps the criminals of the 80's, not more.

My own experience in working around criminals makes me believe that, no matter what sober answer they give after a few years behind bars, their reckless actions that put them there in the first place directly contradict their new found common sense years later regarding whether a victim is armed or not.

 

[watkins1988]

 

[ATM]

I'd be interested in a new study of similar scope, but I doubt that the concept of risk vs. reward has changed much since then.

Most criminals are still looking for the easiest gain with the least amount of risk.

 

[OWGEM]

How many concealed carriers have hidden their hand to blend in with the unarmed and got caught up in a violent situation that they may have avoided if they had been visibly armed?

Do you have statistics? Just saying.

 

[Hoosierdood]

I liked one of the comments in the OP's link.

Robb Allen Says:
December 6th, 2011 at 3:09 pm

FINALLY!!!! A SINGLE story for the open-carry haters to latch onto like Jerry Sandusky grabs a Boy’s Life magazine with a centerfold!!!!

It’s about time we heard of one story of this happening. It now contradicts millions of non-events to prove that OC is dangerous and that you will have your gun taken from you.

Man, using the ‘single instance proves the whole thing’ mindset, I might just have to join the Brady’s since there have been CCW holders who committed crimes so that PROVES CCW holders are all criminals.

Or, maybe I’ll just use logic, think it through and realize an anecdote or two per decade doesn’t really point to anything.

I'm not sure that Open Carry resulted in his death as much as bad situational awareness, and poor choices after his gun was taken. Sure, OC did play a part, but it can't be pointed to as the single reason why he got killed. OP, thanks for the link. It certainly gives us all something to think about. I won't be chanigng my method of carry, however.

 

[DRob]

Yep!

Exactly!

 

[bwframe]

Couple questions, just to stir the pot ;

Has it been determined whether the OCer was targeted or stalked due to his OCing?

How could even the most uber situation-ally aware carrier avoid the obvious threat from behind when standing in line at the convenient store?

 

[ATM]

How many concealed carriers have hidden their hand to blend in with the unarmed and got caught up in a violent situation that they may have avoided if they had been visibly armed?

Do you have statistics? Just saying.

That they may have avoided? 100%

You see, I worded mine a little more carefully.

 

[Rambler]

Couple questions, just to stir the pot ;

Has it been determined whether the OCer was targeted or stalked due to his OCing?

How could even the most uber situation-ally aware carrier avoid the obvious threat from behind when standing in line at the convenient store?

If the attacker stole the OC'er's gun and ran, it's hard to imagine a motive other than attacking him specifically because the gun was on display. I wasn't there, of course, but I don't see another reasonable explanation.

Nobody can maintain sufficient situational awareness to guard against 100% of threats every single second that they are amongst people in public. There are hundreds of little distractions that people encounter every day.