Open or concealed carrying interaction with LEOS? any body want to add on?

[SteveM4A1]

Yes in Indiana it is a crime to carry with out a licence. But because it is illegal to carry with out a license, a police officer must assume that if an individual is carrying that he has a licence to do so Absent any other probable cause to initiate a Terry stop. In Indiana it is a crime to drive a vehicle on public roads with out a licence. But an officer must assume that if he sees someone driving by him down the street that he has a licence to do so Absent any other probable cause for a Terry stop, such as speeding, not observing a stop sign, taking a swig out of a bottle of Jack, crossing over the center line. Because if this was the case every patrol car you would drive by would have sombody pulled over checking to see if they had a license to drive. Because ever single person behind the wheel of a vehicle would be suspect of driving without a license. And what a burden on police departments that would be. Only once a police officer has witnessed a crime or had a crime reported does Terry v. Ohio give him legal power to detain someone to gather information and decide whether to ticket or arrest the individual.





In Indiana all my assertions are based on consensual contact and I think a lot of the confusion is people do not understand the difference between ( consensual contact / detainment / arrest ) each one is different. I also think that the majority of people think that if an officer approaches you that you are being detained when that is far from the truth.

Stop using the vehicle reference. It does not apply. Also, the terminology would be reasonable suspicion. Probable cause is not the same.

ETA: Also, I wish you were correct in your understanding. But until a judge's opinion in our jurisdiction agrees with you (or legislature is passed), this practice will continue.

 

[Dosproduction]

So wait if I am on someone elses property and they are fine with me carrying is that still ok with out a LTCH. Mind you I have my lifetime LTCH.

 

[BADWOLF]

So wait if I am on someone elses property and they are fine with me carrying is that still ok with out a LTCH. Mind you I have my lifetime LTCH.

Yes that is OK with or with out a LTCH

 

[BADWOLF]

Stop using the vehicle reference. It does not apply. Also, the terminology would be reasonable suspicion. Probable cause is not the same.

then inform me specificaly how it is different I would like to understand both are licensed activities for something that without a license is illegal.

ETA: Also, I wish you were correct in your understanding. But until a judge's opinion in our jurisdiction agrees with you (or legislature is passed), this practice will continue.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

But because it is illegal to carry with out a license, a police officer must assume that if an individual is carrying that he has a licence to do so Absent any other probable cause to initiate a Terry stop.

Why must the officer assume that the toter is legal? And your authority for this is what?

Maybe if he sees him in the coffee shop every day and has asked him for a Larry before.

Only once a police officer has witnessed a crime or had a crime reported does Terry v. Ohio give him legal power to detain someone to gather information and decide whether to ticket or arrest the individual.

The crime is carrying the handgun. We do have case law in Indiana which deals with what transpires after an officer discovers the gun toter to have a Larry and that is a full stop.

This is why INGOer rhino wears his LTCH around his neck like a badge on Rookie Blue.

 

[indiucky]

You really need yoga.

He helped Luke Skywalker through a rough patch and could probably do the same for me...Good advice sir...Not up there with pocket carry/AIWB advice but good advice none the less...

You know I was banned for two weeks and have just been enjoying the freedom to post these past couple of days...I promise I will tone down to my normal freaky cross eyed self in a couple of days...Plus I got my last Doctor's visit tomorrow from the nightmare that started 1/8/2015.........I have been over using humor to mask my nervousness...I think everything is okay but the last time I "thought" everything was okay I nearly bought the farm...Wife just came in and told me she made the appointment and kind of sprang it on me..

The last time I posted a sign on the door saying "Gone to the Doctor, Good Lord willing and the creek don't rise I will be back at 11 am" that sign stayed on the door for a month.....

I always feel I am hovering near the ban hammer anyway and the next one will be for keeps...Just be patient...

 

[BE Mike]

I say do it! I'm not all that nervous about my livelihood.

Pro Se​ litigants have actually made me a lot of money.

I was just funnin' ya. Any lawyer on INGO is ok in my book.

 

[indiucky]

I was just funnin' ya. Any lawyer on INGO is ok in my book.

In my mind Kirk and Hough wear British Barrister wigs when they are posting......

 

[Denny347]

That's better.

Hey, I like extended conversations with the public

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Hey, I like extended conversations with the public

 

[Dosproduction]

I like this. As a lawyer what do you consider your political views?

 

[Cola76]

Perfect!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

s a lawyer what do you consider your political views?

Decidedly pro-chicken: eggs, chicken wings, chicken breast, drumsticks, etc. I fully support chicken.

 

[Hoosier45]

Decidedly pro-chicken: eggs, chicken wings, chicken breast, drumsticks, etc. I fully support chicken.

Kirk is a free inhabitant. He enjoys all the rights of a U.S. citizen, but chooses not to follow any of its laws. It has served him well in his legal career.

 

[foszoe]

Decidedly pro-chicken: eggs, chicken wings, chicken breast, drumsticks, etc. I fully support chicken.

If you fully support chicken, I guess that makes you a leg man!

 

[Dead Duck]

If you fully support chicken, I guess that makes you a leg man!

Hey -
Breasts need support too.

 

[jamil]

A wing man IS support.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Kirk is a free inhabitant. He enjoys all the rights of a U.S. citizen, but chooses not to follow any of its laws. It has served him well in his legal career.

I am extremely interested in your views and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Please find the enclosed money order written on the First Bank of the Old Republic for $17.76 which is written on the back of the inside of a pseudoephedrine box, a dead vole and pieces of string which are legal tender under the Articles of Confederation.

 

[BADWOLF]

I'll just quote one of your responses because the others hinge on the same assumptions of national case law application which I am contesting.



You are making the mistake of attempting to apply case law from states where the simple carry (or at least open carry, in most states) of

They may detain to check for exception to the crime and arrest if exception is not proven by the carrier. Again, they can't get away with this in a state where simply carrying is not itself an arrestable crime.

I whole hartedly agree to the above but I guess what I'm trying to get at was that most people assume that if a police officer says ( hey can I talk to you for a min.) That they are being detained which is not true. The individual has the right at that point to say "I don't consent to an encounter, officer." And continue walking now if the officer (orders you to come with him and he would like a word with the person) then the officer is initiating a Terry stop and the individual must comply and if the officer ask for identification & license to carry the individual also must comply to stay within the Law

If SCOTUS decides to rule on carry licenses in the future similarly to what they already have with drivers licenses, their ruling will become applicable here. Until then, Indiana carriers maintain the burden of proving they are excepted from the Indiana crime of handgun carry and officers need allege nothing further than reasonable suspicion that you are carrying a handgun to detain/arrest.

Then that would be great but that but that will never happen until somebody has the balls to challenge it in court....

 

[BADWOLF]

And yes Freeman. From the meme I consider myself a libertarian. And our founding fathers would with a very high probability consider themselves libertarians as well if they were some how a talking head like on Futurama and alive today just in talking head form.