Price differences in AR-15s

[phylodog]

The only reason a stock Colt M4 costs $500 is because the military signs contracts for tens of thousands of them and that drives the price down significantly. When I was in, the Army was paying more money for a tracked vehicle driver's helmet than they were an M9 pistol. I have my doubts as to whether a commercially available Colt rifle is held to the same QC and testing standards as the rifles the military buys and the commercial versions are a lot more than $500.

Our SF teams don't take new out of the box rifles and head into operations with them either. They have fully staffed professional gunsmiths who work those rifles over to their specifications before the tip of the spear guys use them.

I'm a huge fan of the AR15/M16 platform, always have been. There are different levels of quality control and acceptable tolerance deviations in the industry. One particular manufacturer of parts may sell to 20 different companies but that does not mean that all of the parts are equal. Tighter specs and more in depth testing can play a pretty big part in which company gets which parts from that manufacturer. Some manufacturers have looser requirements than others. If I were building a plinking rifle I'd have no issue simply searching out the most affordable parts I could find. When I needed a rifle to work with I consulted those in the industry I trust and went with what I believed would stand up to the hard use my rifle sees. Could any rifle out there stand up? Maybe. Ain't betting my life on maybe.

 

[jfw46544]

I wanna see the $700 Colts.

Here you go.

CDNN SPORTS - COLT CSR 1516 5.56 COMPETITION SPORTING RIFLE

 

[flatlander]

If there was that much of a difference in parts and real world durability sf teams and seals wouldn't still be having $500 M4s they deploy with. Yes they have some other weapons in their inventories, but not a single one of them have "high end" AR15s.. You don't bring a garaged babied Ferrari to race in NASCAR...

I'm just going to say this last thing as you obviously know much more than I do. I was a Grunt for 21 years in 2 different services and spent 3 years as a contractor in Iraq so I may have just a tiny bit of experience with many different M16 makers. I KNOW what I would bet MY life on and it wouldn't be a low end weapon. What you are willing to bet YOUR life on is your concern. I hope neither of us find out we were wrong.
Phylodog hit the nail on the head. The "$500" rifles you speak of were not the same $500 rifle you buy off the rack.

Bob

 

[seedubs1]

Even though it's got a colt stamp on the side, that is not a gun I'd even consider. Without even looking further, it's got no FA and no dust cover. If they're going to cut corners on those parts, I'm betting lots of other corners were cut.

Here you go.

CDNN SPORTS - COLT CSR 1516 5.56 COMPETITION SPORTING RIFLE

 

[cop car]

Phylodog hit the nail on the head. The "$500" rifles you speak of were not the same $500 rifle you buy off the rack.


Bob

Sorry there big sarge but they are almost identical. In fact my whole upper and bcg are 100% identical. Only real difference is the auto sear, the extra area and hole for it, a second disconnecter, room in the trigger for it and the burst cam if its 3 round burst. I could take 50 military contract parts and 50 civilian mil spec parts and put them in a box and not a single soul on the planet could tell the two apart because they are the same. Same manufacturers sell to the .gov and the civilian world alike. While there are some cheaper and crappier parts available, anything mil spec is exactly that. Since you are going to name drop that you were a grunt using these weapons, I will go ahead and tell you that my whole job was repairing and replacing parts on the small arms inventory. I've touched about as many AR15 platform weapons 98% of the forum combined. After seeing what an 11B, scouts, tankers and support people can do to mil spec weapons and then still be able to hit man sized targets at 300m, you don't need anymore rifle than that. Especially if you are under a 20in barrel. If you want to spend more money on a rifle more power to you, but it won't be more reliable, and if it's considerably more accurate it for sure will not be as reliable in dirty situations. Tight tolerances make for more accurate and more temperamental weapons.




"More expensive" doesn't always equate to "better" it kills me when people propagate that myth. A mil spec AR15 with a magpul mag, shooting mil spec ammo is the most reliable AR15 you can buy. The good news is that you can build one for $600 or less.


while a drivers or pilots input is important and needed, They don't always know all the details about the mechanics and engineering.. Not trying to belittle you at all. I'm just stating the fact that mil spec parts available to us are identical in every way to what the military uses. And they are cheap.

 

[warriorbob]

If there was that much of a difference in parts and real world durability sf teams and seals wouldn't still be having $500 M4s they deploy with. Yes they have some other weapons in their inventories, but not a single one of them have "high end" AR15s.. You don't bring a garaged babied Ferrari to race in NASCAR...

You do realize seals and sf use hk 416's right? That's pretty high end. Although I will agree a lot of the price you pay for high end brands is for the name. I think my spikes is awesome and I think it performs better than the colt or s&w I've had in the past and I got it for about $200 dollars less than the colt.

 

[cop car]

M4A1 | Navy SEALs


Colt's M4A1 5.56mm Carbine


Heckler & Koch HK416 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Delta force and some marines use it. Not seals however. Seals and green berets are using M4a1s. All I am doing is putting info out there. You are the one who makes the decisions on what you buy and what you trust.

 

[Walt G]

Just stick with a reputable mfg and you will do just fin. I always like bcm you can spend as little or as much as you want and it's aways high quality.

 

[cop car]

M4 carbine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another good article to read. Addresses the piston vs direct impingement argument also.

 

[Robjps]

Even though it's got a colt stamp on the side, that is not a gun I'd even consider. Without even looking further, it's got no FA and no dust cover. If they're going to cut corners on those parts, I'm betting lots of other corners were cut.

6720's the lightweight barrel version of the 6920's has been on sale for $700 recently I've also seen $800 6920's. There is a glut in the AR market currently and Colt/everyone is trying not to lose their asses if they can move them at enough to break even i think they are right now.


*Edit , BCM is/was offering a free BCG with every upper purchase. Making their cheaper uppers one hell of a deal.

 

[actaeon277]

If there was that much of a difference in parts and real world durability sf teams and seals wouldn't still be having $500 M4s they deploy with. Yes they have some other weapons in their inventories, but not a single one of them have "high end" AR15s.. You don't bring a garaged babied Ferrari to race in NASCAR...

The only reason a stock Colt M4 costs $500 is because the military signs contracts for tens of thousands of them and that drives the price down significantly. When I was in, the Army was paying more money for a tracked vehicle driver's helmet than they were an M9 pistol. I have my doubts as to whether a commercially available Colt rifle is held to the same QC and testing standards as the rifles the military buys and the commercial versions are a lot more than $500.

Our SF teams don't take new out of the box rifles and head into operations with them either. They have fully staffed professional gunsmiths who work those rifles over to their specifications before the tip of the spear guys use them.

I'm a huge fan of the AR15/M16 platform, always have been. There are different levels of quality control and acceptable tolerance deviations in the industry. One particular manufacturer of parts may sell to 20 different companies but that does not mean that all of the parts are equal. Tighter specs and more in depth testing can play a pretty big part in which company gets which parts from that manufacturer. Some manufacturers have looser requirements than others. If I were building a plinking rifle I'd have no issue simply searching out the most affordable parts I could find. When I needed a rifle to work with I consulted those in the industry I trust and went with what I believed would stand up to the hard use my rifle sees. Could any rifle out there stand up? Maybe. Ain't betting my life on maybe.

Sorry there big sarge but they are almost identical. In fact my whole upper and bcg are 100% identical. Only real difference is the auto sear, the extra area and hole for it, a second disconnecter, room in the trigger for it and the burst cam if its 3 round burst. I could take 50 military contract parts and 50 civilian mil spec parts and put them in a box and not a single soul on the planet could tell the two apart because they are the same. Same manufacturers sell to the .gov and the civilian world alike. While there are some cheaper and crappier parts available, anything mil spec is exactly that. Since you are going to name drop that you were a grunt using these weapons, I will go ahead and tell you that my whole job was repairing and replacing parts on the small arms inventory. I've touched about as many AR15 platform weapons 98% of the forum combined. After seeing what an 11B, scouts, tankers and support people can do to mil spec weapons and then still be able to hit man sized targets at 300m, you don't need anymore rifle than that. Especially if you are under a 20in barrel. If you want to spend more money on a rifle more power to you, but it won't be more reliable, and if it's considerably more accurate it for sure will not be as reliable in dirty situations. Tight tolerances make for more accurate and more temperamental weapons.




"More expensive" doesn't always equate to "better" it kills me when people propagate that myth. A mil spec AR15 with a magpul mag, shooting mil spec ammo is the most reliable AR15 you can buy. The good news is that you can build one for $600 or less.


while a drivers or pilots input is important and needed, They don't always know all the details about the mechanics and engineering.. Not trying to belittle you at all. I'm just stating the fact that mil spec parts available to us are identical in every way to what the military uses. And they are cheap.

cop car, you're right in that more expensive isn't always better.
But, I think phylo is more right.
You just made a statement about 11B, but phylo was responding to your other post.... seals and sf.
I've been out for a while, but in the mid 80s, the SEALs had a variety of weapons, including the M-16/AR-15/M-4 platform.
And it was not what GI Joe was carrying around.
And they were all lovingly maintained by some pretty good armorers, which most of us don't have access to. Many of the parts were changed, or modified.
This was about the time the military was switching from 1911 to M9.
This one SEAL had a fully auto 9mm pistol. WOW. But that's a different story.

For the record, no, I'm not claiming to be a SEAL or ex-SEAL.
You might say I was a bus driver, sort of.

 

[Faine]

My 2 cents on this is thus. Yes and No. The cost of your AR should be dependent on your intended use and means. Are there quality variances? Definitely. Are there price variances? Definitely. Do they align? Sometimes. There's a ton of things to look at when building/buying your AR. Intended use is the primary concern I think. SD Rifle, Range Rifle, SBR, Suppressed for Fun, Long Range, etc... Each of those presents unique aspects that require certain conditions to be met in order to fulfill their role adequately. Means, can you afford to put 1000rds down range a couple times a month, are you going to shoot a 100rds a month? Can you afford Seekins Precision or can you only afford PTAC? Buy to your means and buy to your role. Once you have clarified those categories you can identify what's truly important.

For instance, lets say I was going to build a precision AR. There are some things I personally want to have. I want a good trigger, I want match ammunition, I want a good bipod, I want good glass, I want to ensure both of the latter are mounted securely so I know I need a solid forend/rail and a good set of rings for my optic. Given it's a precision build I am going to spend a little more on my barrel as well and get a bull barrel if it's within my means. You can skimp on any of these things but doing so can reduce the effectiveness, immediate and long term, of the rifles abilities within its niche. You can use a pencil barrel for a precision build, it will work, chances are it will not work as well as other offerings and it's likely those offerings will cost more.

(other examples: SBR = 200usd tax stamp or a pistol with SB15 brace (or equivalent); Suppressed = suppressor, 200usd tax stamp, probably not a pencil barrel as I've heard of issues with overheating and bending (could just be a wives tale); SD Rifle you'll want to add a flashlight, maybe a toggle switch, perhaps an optic like an Aimpoint or EOtech (Sparc or Fastfire would be cheaper options).)

If all you need is a plinker to pop paper with and have something to shoot, there's no need to drop tons on it, get what you need and spend the rest on ammo/range time. But if you want a niche rifle, then you have to look into how to best accommodate the role you want/need filled and understand that price is a factor in achieving your end goal.

You can get into anything at just about any price-range these days, the question is how effective you want to be at what you're doing, how effective you NEED to be at what you're doing and how much you can afford to accommodate those needs and wants. Also something to realize is that time is either for you or against you. If you're in a hurry it's against you, if you have time then patience will reward you. Sales happen throughout the year and you can often get very good deals on parts and/or complete rifles if you can save and wait for those sales. Black Thursday/Friday, Cyber Monday, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, etc... That's a really good way to get more quality for less cost. In the end time is probably the ultimate factor in a build because time allows you the ability to save more for it, buy things for less, and maximize your cost to effectiveness. Also, time gives you the ability to do more research and LEARN, LEARN, LEARN what you need to know to make good decisions regarding your purchases. Hurrying into a purchase increases the chance of being less than satisfied and being less than satisfied has cost many a gun-owner much of their reserves to correct.

 

[lucky4034]

The man said he was going to shoot it once a month all of 50yds at a clean gun range....

Ive got your answer buddy.... buy a 600 dollar rifle. Id personally like to recommend Palmetto State Armory. Dress her in magpul furniture and not only will she be pretty.... but she will be more accurate than you and if for some reason you find your life depending on her... she will go bang every time you pull the trigger.

This thread got more complicated than it needed to be

 

[lucky4034]

P.S. take the other $1000 i just saved you and buy ammo, invest in training.... or put it in your kids college fund.

Youll thank me later

 

[Leo]

I don't care if the most pompus, arrogant quazi expert gun mechanic in the country delivered me his latest trendy AR in person over a steak dinner, if it does not have a top quality barrel and a top quality trigger, it is not a rifle I would want. All the other crap does not mean a thing if it cuts the same groups as I can with an M9 shooting service ball ammo.

 

[blue2golf]

Meh. Smith and Wesson Sport has been going for under $530 on slickguns.com. Everything you need out of the box, ready to go. No, it's not an LMT or BCM but so what? It'll see you through whatever when the grand jury doesn't indict Officer Darren Wilson or the next Katrina. Get it, ammo, some spare mags and a surplus magazine pouch, plus a sling. You'll be set up.

 

[critter592]

Thank you all! I'm sure you've answered this question 1000x already.

 

[One Shot One Kill]

^+1
All the answers in this thread have made me feel better about my AR. As a college student, I don't have much money and just this year got my first AR for $650. It is a Stag Arms model 2T with rear MBUS. Love the thing, but wondered if it's accuracy/quality was any lesser than bigger brands (with bigger $ tags). Happy to know it's, for the most part, just as good as any other AR.

P.s. didn't mean to threadjack, but had to share :P

 

[seedubs1]

Stag makes nice stuff. Shoot the hell out of it. It's a mostly mil-spec AR, with the exception of the BCG being semi-auto profile. Not a bad rifle at all for $650. Maybe sell the BCG and upgrade to a mil-spec BCG at some point. But that's all I'd ever do to it.

FYI, stag is owned by CMT, which is a DOD contractor. Their mil spec parts (such as BCGs) are GTG.

^+1
All the answers in this thread have made me feel better about my AR. As a college student, I don't have much money and just this year got my first AR for $650. It is a Stag Arms model 2T with rear MBUS. Love the thing, but wondered if it's accuracy/quality was any lesser than bigger brands (with bigger $ tags). Happy to know it's, for the most part, just as good as any other AR.

P.s. didn't mean to threadjack, but had to share :P

 

[Jeepsandguns]

Stag makes nice stuff. Shoot the hell out of it. It's a mostly mil-spec AR, with the exception of the BCG being semi-auto profile. Not a bad rifle at all for $650. Maybe sell the BCG and upgrade to a mil-spec BCG at some point. But that's all I'd ever do to it.

FYI, stag is owned by CMT, which is a DOD contractor. Their mil spec parts (such as BCGs) are GTG.

i bought a stag model 1 upper last year with the premium plus package to finish my AR build. It shoots just as well as my buddies $1500 Daniel Defense AR.