Question about Ron Paul

[dross]

There is already full free choice... Don't try to get a job where union membership is a requirement. You wouldn't expect to get a job driving a big rig without a CDL, would you?

Why not just get the government out of it? What's your objection to that?

 

[Bond 281]

Since when have you ever HAD to join a union to have a job? That's ludicrous. It's a choice, and a right, like carrying a firearm. One that puts food on my family's table. I don't know about other unions but there are plenty of non-union pipeline companies, and I could care less if a person is union or non, as long as I have my choice to work union. Also, just how are unions in any way helping in the bankruptcy of America?

My personal views about unions aside, here is Paul's position:

Right to Work | Ron Paul 2012 Presidential Campaign Committee

"While Ron Paul supports the right of every American to join a private sector union if they wish, he believes, like most Americans, that forcing workers to pay union dues just to get or keep a job is wrong."

Seems fair enough to me.

 

[MrYesterday]

Seems fair enough to me.

It would be, if it were that simple. Fact is there are non-union equivalents to most every unionized trade. I'm a pipeliner, and there are plenty of non-union pipeline jobs. Also, there are police stations where the officers aren't union, you can be an actor without a SAG card, ect. That's the choice of the workers that already HAVE a position in that area. If you don't want to join a union, then find an area without a union attached to it. Union may have better pay, but that is BECAUSE of the unions help. I wouldn't make $30-$40 (dependent on area) an hour + per diem, + travel pay if it weren't for my union. In my experience, people against unions have either tried to get in one, and weren't accepted, are employers that don't like paying union wages, or they are in non-unionized fields, and it doesn't apply to them anyway.

I don't just make good money because I'm in the union. I make good money because I have great work ethic, work 60-100 hours a week, know every facet of my profession, and I'm professional. Contractors want to hire union labor most of the time because we train, and account for our workers, where if they hired non-union labor they CAN (did not say WILL) end up with less educated/experienced workers, people that view it as more of a job than a career. Any kid off the street can buy a hood and get a job at a non-union welding shop, and slop on a few TIG/MIG welds (I know, because before I joined the ARMY I made a LOT of s**tty spot welds in a local non-union shop, and had ZERO experience yet still got the job). To get the same job at a union shop you have to have 4+ certificates, and an apprenticeship.

I'm not saying union is better, I'm just saying leave us alone. We're just trying to feed our families too. I'm not coming to your worksite, handing out union propaganda with a billy club on my belt like it's New York City in the 70's. Unions aren't the mean machines they once were. We're just a group of men and women that take a more active role in our future. Nothing is wrong with non-union, make your money, brother. Just stop trying to mess with my ability to make mine.

 

[Bond 281]

It would be, if it were that simple. Fact is there are non-union equivalents to most every unionized trade. I'm a pipeliner, and there are plenty of non-union pipeline jobs. Also, there are police stations where the officers aren't union, you can be an actor without a SAG card, ect. That's the choice of the workers that already HAVE a position in that area. If you don't want to join a union, then find an area without a union attached to it. Union may have better pay, but that is BECAUSE of the unions help. I wouldn't make $30-$40 (dependent on area) an hour + per diem, + travel pay if it weren't for my union. In my experience, people against unions have either tried to get in one, and weren't accepted, are employers that don't like paying union wages, or they are in non-unionized fields, and it doesn't apply to them anyway.

I don't just make good money because I'm in the union. I make good money because I have great work ethic, work 60-100 hours a week, know every facet of my profession, and I'm professional. Contractors want to hire union labor most of the time because we train, and account for our workers, where if they hired non-union labor they CAN (did not say WILL) end up with less educated/experienced workers, people that view it as more of a job than a career. Any kid off the street can buy a hood and get a job at a non-union welding shop, and slop on a few TIG/MIG welds (I know, because before I joined the ARMY I made a LOT of s**tty spot welds in a local non-union shop, and had ZERO experience yet still got the job). To get the same job at a union shop you have to have 4+ certificates, and an apprenticeship.

I'm not saying union is better, I'm just saying leave us alone. We're just trying to feed our families too. I'm not coming to your worksite, handing out union propaganda with a billy club on my belt like it's New York City in the 70's. Unions aren't the mean machines they once were. We're just a group of men and women that take a more active role in our future. Nothing is wrong with non-union, make your money, brother. Just stop trying to mess with my ability to make mine.

I don't see how it can be up to the workers to dictate who a company can hire. If unions are so great, then surely they don't need government protection. My father was in the electrical union for about 20 years and hates the union. He did make good money, which was nice, but there's a big trade off for it. Unions may not be as much of a big power player like they used to, but they still do plenty of shady stuff.

 

[MrYesterday]

I don't see how it can be up to the workers to dictate who a company can hire.

It's not up to the workers. It's ultimately up to the company. All a company would have to do (in most cases) is fire the union members and hire non-union (like companies like Wal-Mart tell new employees as soon as they are hired on). In most cases the companies realize that they would be losing some of their best skilled labor, so they make the trade-off. Unions may strike or picket, but you rarely hear about a truly violent strike or protest like you did years ago. Sure there's a lot of cursing, and threats (of which I don't partake, because I'm always too busy working) but there is a lot of that when a non-union worker is let go/screwed over as well.

Maybe my union is different than others, but for the $27 a month I pay I make an extra $20 an hour (on top of my occupation's normal salary), plus a great retirement and health package, a dispatch officer that I can call when I'm out of work that finds new work for me, free training, and legal council if I ever need it. I don't really know what there is to complain about.

 

[Bond 281]

It's not up to the workers. It's ultimately up to the company. All a company would have to do (in most cases) is fire the union members and hire non-union (like companies like Wal-Mart tell new employees as soon as they are hired on). In most cases the companies realize that they would be losing some of their best skilled labor, so they make the trade-off. Unions may strike or picket, but you rarely hear about a truly violent strike or protest like you did years ago. Sure there's a lot of cursing, and threats (of which I don't partake, because I'm always too busy working) but there is a lot of that when a non-union worker is let go/screwed over as well.

Maybe my union is different than others, but for the $27 a month I pay I make an extra $20 an hour (on top of my occupation's normal salary), plus a great retirement and health package, a dispatch officer that I can call when I'm out of work that finds new work for me, free training, and legal council if I ever need it. I don't really know what there is to complain about.

Firing everybody isn't all that feasible in a lot of cases. Most of the complaints about unions arise from them using dues money to funnel to Democrats. The only benefit I really see overall of unions is that they train people in labor skills, however that could be done without the baggage of unions meddling in politics. Let's also not forget teacher's unions, where they ruin our education system and cry that they don't get paid even more to fail at their jobs.

As far as your lack of complaints, that's perfectly understandable. It also helps that you don't seem to be ethic at all. My father is of mexican descent, though he doesn't even look much like it, and was born and raised here, native English speaker etc. When he got into IBEW he was flat out told that he was only there to fill a quota, and that he would never, ever become a foreman or supervisor because he wasn't "white." The money was worth it, what with having a family to support and all, but he's never held any sort of loyalty or lofty ideals about unions. As far as he's concerned he just sees them as a way to keep ethnic people from making decent wages.

 

[OLDSMITH]

I agree. Besides the apathetic, misinformed, and ignorant, the main reason for ignoring Ron Paul and other freedom loving Americans is pure and simple …. FEAR. Fear of looking deeper for the truth. Fear of living in a country that will allow Citizens to try, and maybe fail.

 

[MrYesterday]

It also helps that you don't seem to be ethnic at all..

I'm of Blackfoot decent, and everyone I work with knows it. I work with 2 Mexicans (one born here, one immigrated), and 3 "African American" gentlemen. I'm sorry that your father hated his union, but the same racism could have been said for any job in the non-union sector a decade or 2 ago.

I don't see how it's so hard to just fire everyone (tenure of teachers aside) a lot of companies have done it. I also APPLAUD them for doing it when the union is making outrageous demands. A union shouldn't be a WMD used for getting more than anyone deserves (such as ball player stikes... fire every one of those a**holes).

We can debate all day, but we won't change eachother's minds. I just wanted to chime in as a member of a union that isn't militant, anti-non-union, or too awfully hard headed.

 

[Bond 281]

I'm of Blackfoot decent, and everyone I work with knows it. I work with 2 Mexicans (one born here, one immigrated), and 3 "African American" gentlemen. I'm sorry that your father hated his union, but the same racism could have been said for any job in the non-union sector a decade or 2 ago.

I don't see how it's so hard to just fire everyone (tenure of teachers aside) a lot of companies have done it. I also APPLAUD them for doing it when the union is making outrageous demands. A union shouldn't be a WMD used for getting more than anyone deserves (such as ball player stikes... fire every one of those a**holes).

We can debate all day, but we won't change eachother's minds. I just wanted to chime in as a member of a union that isn't militant, anti-non-union, or too awfully hard headed.

Haha fair enough. I'm aware that various unions will be drastically different. My dad was also in one in the Chicago area so that's probably the worst of the worst. But hey, it does pay a good wage and he took advantage of it, so he (nor I) can't really complain about the racism. It wasn't even everyone there really, just the management anyway. But yeah, if you like your union and it works for you, great. My main point I was getting around to was that Ron Paul isn't super anti-union, nor can he really do anything without pushing it through Congress anyway, so I don't know that I would rule him out just because of that one issue.

 

[MrYesterday]

Fear of living in a country that will allow Citizens to try, and maybe fail.

Considering that this is the reality (instead of dream) for most every American (thought usually failing is the outcome), I think this point is kind of moot. *shrug*

 

[1911 DeadHead]

Haha fair enough. I'm aware that various unions will be drastically different. My dad was also in one in the Chicago area so that's probably the worst of the worst. But hey, it does pay a good wage and he took advantage of it, so he (nor I) can't really complain about the racism. It wasn't even everyone there really, just the management anyway. But yeah, if you like your union and it works for you, great. My main point I was getting around to was that Ron Paul isn't super anti-union, nor can he really do anything without pushing it through Congress anyway, so I don't know that I would rule him out just because of that one issue.

Bango!

 

[MrYesterday]

Haha fair enough. I'm aware that various unions will be drastically different. My dad was also in one in the Chicago area so that's probably the worst of the worst. But hey, it does pay a good wage and he took advantage of it, so he (nor I) can't really complain about the racism. It wasn't even everyone there really, just the management anyway. But yeah, if you like your union and it works for you, great. My main point I was getting around to was that Ron Paul isn't super anti-union, nor can he really do anything without pushing it through Congress anyway, so I don't know that I would rule him out just because of that one issue.

I've seen Carter and Sr. do damage to the unions in their terms so a candidate's stance influences my vote considerably. But like I said, aside from that one caveat, I think Ron Paul is the best choice we have.

 

[Project972]

Vote Ron. President USA South. Semper Fi

 

[army bratt]

he is right when it comes to the law of our land but then he is in left field (no pun ) when it comes to foreign policy. i think most of us realize that we do have some respocibility when it comes to policing, if you will, the civilized world. being the largest economy and what seems to the moral authority over all does come at a huge price... just thinkn off the top of my head!

 

[MrYesterday]

Us trying to police the world has caused the untimely death of thousands of American soldiers, and the squandering of trillions of dollars that could have been used to make our own country better for the sick, starving, and needy here. We are no moral authority. America's sense of morality (as a whole) was lost to greed, and vanity years ago.

 

[Cerberus]

he is right when it comes to the law of our land but then he is in left field (no pun ) when it comes to foreign policy. i think most of us realize that we do have some respocibility when it comes to policing, if you will, the civilized world. being the largest economy and what seems to the moral authority over all does come at a huge price... just thinkn off the top of my head!

BS!!! The reason our collapse is more than likely imminent is because of this erroneous thought process. We have no more resposibility, moral right or duty than a foreign army has in coming to our shores. It's time we ditch the imperialist foreign policy.

 

[rooster007]

Since when have you ever HAD to join a union to have a job? That's ludicrous. It's a choice, and a right, like carrying a firearm. One that puts food on my family's table. I don't know about other unions but there are plenty of non-union pipeline companies, and I could care less if a person is union or non, as long as I have my choice to work union. Also, just how are unions in any way helping in the bankruptcy of America?

thanks for your post . In another post I got beat up pretty bad on the right to work issue , goverment has no right in it , if I choose to work for a union company ,or not to work for a union company thats my choice. I choose to go to work for a union company because of job stablity. My move was a lateral pay move for which I was called a liar for by another forum member.
Again thank you for your post.

 

[MrYesterday]

Again thank you for your post.

No problem.

It's an issue like any other:
"Glocks are better than 1911s" "Nuh Uh, 1911s are better"
"Chevys can't handle Fords" "Ford stands for found on road dead!"

There are benefits to unions for an employee, and as a nation if that union is managed properly. The problem is a lot of unions were ran so badly for so long that they have a negative stigma now. I'm not going to try and force my views down people's throats, but I'm damn sure not going to sit by while people spread lies, and outdated stereotypes about them.

Unions empower their employees, and help us stand up to the things that most people must suffer through in the work place. They give us a voice with which to tell our employers "NO!" when we're being abused, without fear of being fired. They help set up retirements (something that 80% of people are just terrible at) that aren't going to disappear like social security, and have healthcare paid for for us, without ever missing it from our paychecks. There are a lot more positives than negatives, and I just wish people would see that. There's a reason so many people are PROUD to be union members.

One thing I do agree on is the teacher's union lets way too many people collect a paycheck for no real work done. We don't have tenure in the pipeline, and I think it's a terrible idea for the most part (with FEW exceptions). As a pipeliner I have to maintain a strong work ethic, and and level of performance or I can lose my job. That's how it should be. If you're dragging down everyone, you should be retrained, or let go.

 

[KLB]

Us trying to police the world has caused the untimely death of thousands of American soldiers, and the squandering of trillions of dollars that could have been used to make our own country better for the sick, starving, and needy here. We are no moral authority. America's sense of morality (as a whole) was lost to greed, and vanity years ago.

Actually, the money would have been better not being spent at all. It was all borrowed.

 

[MrYesterday]

Actually, the money would have been better not being spent at all. It was all borrowed.

I would rather be a nation in debt because we provided food to the hungry, homes for the homeless, and and medical care for the sick than a nation with a budget in the black. But maybe I'm an old sap.