Ready Positions: Muzzle Up vs Muzzle Down

[Jackson]

This should be almost as much fun as the grip thread.

I've recently taken some training with Mindset Laboratory. I've also trained with Tactical Response in the past. Both of those organizations advocate a muzzle-up ready position. Other trainers I've worked with, such as DTI, TDI, Boone County, Fortress Defense, and several others all advocate a muzzle-down ready position such as Sul or Low Ready. They are completely against using a muzzle-up position at any time.

I have my own opinions on the subject, but I wanted to bring the question to the forum and see what kind of resposne we get before I throw in my thoughts.

So the question: Which 'ready position' do you use? Why do you use it? What do you see are the advantages and disadvantes of each? If you are strongly against one position or another, why are you against it? What are the issues with it?

 

[Jackson]

I should have added an option for "I use something else." So, if you use something else, please tell us about that.

 

[Thegeek]

Soft surface, muzzle down. Hard surface, muzzle up.

 

[Hemingway]

I am 100% for both. To me, the question is like asking, do you shoot strong hand or support hand.

The situation dictates the direction. If I'm in a downstairs apartment, I hope the guys above me are not a SUL only advocate. Same if I'm in a rubber boat, as Yeager says. Same if I'm in a car. Same if I've got a child on my leg or a family member bleeding at my feet.

I use both about equally because I feel like I want to be equally adept at either way.

I have no issues with it either way.

The bottom line to me is that people need to be able to safely handle their weapons in a large (360*) crowd of people.

If you're only one way with that, you CANNOT be safe in every scenario.

I train to operate where I can walk in an out of a serpentine of people, engaging the targets without ever flagging anyone with my muzzle.

 

[obijohn]

Typically, muzzle down for me. I will submit that muzzle up is preferred in boats. I am not, however, generally in a small boat. Operating a firearm is an inherently dangerous proposition. It is all about mitigating the danger. If I use a muzzle up position, I have no idea where an ND will end up. If I'm in a stack and the person behind me stumbles, I would prefer they shoot me in the leg or foot as opposed to my head.

 

[Westside]

1) if you are in a helicopter muzzle down.
2) if you are in a boat Muzzle up.
3) the direction that will do the least amount of collateral damage in the event of an unintentional discharge.

 

[Westside]

Typically, muzzle down for me. I will submit that muzzle up is preferred in boats. I am not, however, generally in a small boat. Operating a firearm is an inherently dangerous proposition. It is all about mitigating the danger. If I use a muzzle up position, I have no idea where an ND will end up. If I'm in a stack and the person behind me stumbles, I would prefer they shoot me in the leg or foot as opposed to my head.

are you general in large boats then?

 

[iChokePeople]

Situation-dependent, for me. How "ready" do I want to be? Am I in a crowd, moving through a crowd, etc? Generally muzzle down, but could be in at "sul", could be at retention/#2, etc, depending on my perception of the threat and my perception of risks.

 

[iChokePeople]

are you general in large boats then?

John has a thing for sailors.

 

[wrnyhuise]

while deployed i found myself having to use multiple positions even sum not covered simply based on some messed up situations. But normal comfort position would be low down

 

[esrice]

Great topic!

Here's another similar thread Jackson: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/tactics_and_training/233212-ready_positions_pistol.html

So the question: Which 'ready position' do you use?

In general I tend to default to SUL.

Why do you use it?

I like the gun muzzle depressed and close to my body. It aids in retention when others are around. Fighting for control of the gun from this position is easier and I can still get hits on the grabber.

And to a certain degree it's what I'm most used to and familiar with.

What do you see are the advantages and disadvantes of each?

I think muzzle-up is a great answer to a wide variety of muzzle issues. While it may suffer from some retention issues it does provide a nice 'cocked' position if you needed to strike someone with the pistol.

SUL is great for retention but won't work in all situations (seated in a vehicle, for example).

If you are strongly against one position or another, why are you against it? What are the issues with it?

I don't have strong feelings either way. I see benefits on both sides of the up/down issue. While I think having a default is good, problem solving and adapting to the environment are parts of utilizing good tactics.

What I am against is no-position-at-all, without-purpose, loosey-goosey gun handling.

And of course such things should be stress tested.

 

[Jackson]

while deployed i found myself having to use multiple positions even sum not covered simply based on some messed up situations. But normal comfort position would be low down

Can you expand on that with some whats, whens and whys?

 

[jdhaines]

Muzzle down, often Sul, unless running. Running with rifle or pistol = muzzle up for me.

I thought the whole muzzle up thing was silly until Shay explained why its used and the pros/cons. Now it makes sense and I see it as usable, just not what I was shown first and not what I'm most comfortable with.

 

[Jackson]

Can I assume that anyone who selected "it varies" from the poll would ocassionally use muzzle-up positions? If this is not the case, please clarify, or I will have to assume all 'it varies' people do ocassionally use muzzle-up position.

 

[wrnyhuise]

Can you expand on that with some whats, whens and whys?

Good example for muzzle up in my experiences would be large group of people or close group ie; room clearing or in a room with large numbers and unknown situation upstairs.

shouldered rifle muzzle down was my normal position walking but thought i might have to react fast. I find that position allows for the fastest sight picture possible.

in regard to random the best i can say is you MUST be aware of your surroundings and be smart about it. you don't want a muzzle pointed at something you do not intend to shoot so train and practice different positions. You will always find the most comfortable but spend hours with each getting the muscles to remember each position.

One thing is for certain, life rarely happens the exact way you plan it out, so you must train and practice for the variable as much as possible. When in doubt "Semper Gumby" always flexible.

 

[esrice]

Can I assume that anyone who selected "it varies" from the poll would ocassionally use muzzle-up positions?

Yes (for me).

 

[OneBadV8]

Can I assume that anyone who selected "it varies" from the poll would ocassionally use muzzle-up positions? If this is not the case, please clarify, or I will have to assume all 'it varies' people do ocassionally use muzzle-up position.

Yep. Depends on the environment, surroundings, etc.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I've been taught both SUL and kind of a "low compact ready" (ACT instructors, my apologies for forgetting terminology )

I was also shown a couple of limitations of SUL in the ACT class I did take. Mainly relating to my large cushy American self causing the muzzle of my firearm to be aimed right at said belly during Sul.

ACT advocated keeping the firearm close to the body, but still in a firing position. Gun not straight out perpendicular - yet not pulled in close and parallel like Sul.

It was difficult for me to NOT do Sul. I often ended up in some kind of amalgamation of Sul and what John / Joe were teaching.

 

[H.T.]

As a Vet myself I have to say that Wrnyhuise hit the nail on the head. You do find yourself using varying weapons ready carries. Particularly win one is in country.

I would like to point out that while many of the training institutes on this site are very good for the purpose they serve. The over all lack of real world experience limits there knowledge to what they have been taught. Naturally they will teach there students to the level they were taught at or what they feel is the best way for a layman to carry.
You also have to take into consideration that in the military particularly in the combat arms. Infantry, Cavalry, Armored, Spec Ops etc. We carry weapons any time we train. When deployed they are with us 24/7. The military trains us to carry in varying ways for different ways for varying situation. We train over and over again so much of what we do is muscle memory. This can't be learned in a two or three or even a week long course. It must be practiced over and over again.

 

[wrnyhuise]

H.T. you hit the main point there. time in training. Take a class but do not stop training or practicing there. As a range coach and Marksmanship instructor in the Mariens i can tell you the we have people get into 1 fireing position or another and make them stay there for no less than a half hour each time but in total each position should have (in my experience) no less than 1 hour per week in a certain position to keep your muscles used to it. Now i know this is extreme for civilian purposes but adapt it as you see fit. If you take a course or lessons of some kind, please make sure to dummy practice at home even when not firing. The time your muscles spend in these positions translates to accuracy and speed without fail. Any marksman military or competition will tell you that muscle memory is right up there with the most important factors.