Reason Magazine openly advocates forced vaccination

[rambone]

So, maybe we need a few changes to the existing laws. When schools have to pay out overtime to maintenance staff to disinfect after kids with whooping cough and other preventable diseases, wouldn't it be fair to bill the parents?

I think the entirety of school bills should be billed to parents who use it. How those bills are dispersed should be up to the schools.

And if someone gets sick, despite being vaccinated or if they aren't current, then should they not have the right to sue the infectious disease carrier for negligence?

Vaccinated people spread disease too. And people who appear healthy can carry disease.

If you want the doorway to be opened, let's swing it open all the way. Lawsuits for everybody. Nobody is getting a pass because they took a flu shot.

If dropping a microorganism is aggression, then everybody is being aggressive. All day long, millions of times. Good microorganisms, bad microorganisms....they are all equally forceful.

But, should we not have legal recourse against people who deliberately put us and others at risk?

How do you propose to prove that in court? Beyond a reasonable doubt, that the exact microorganism that jumped in your nose hopped off the defendant.

Maybe Colonel Mustard sneezed on a doorknob and the defendant is being wrongly prosecuted? How could we know? Were there any witnesses?

Do you really think any justice is going to come out of this?

 

[88GT]

Vax, vax, vax.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

What responsibility does anyone have to his community? I think the entire premise of the question is flawed.

OK, from another perspective: Am I not responsible for my actions? Many times we know when we're sick. If I know I'm sick and I make contact with others, do I not bear any responsibility for transmitting my illness to them if they catch it?

Admittedly, for the common, relatively, benign illnesses we contract any more, it would be virtually impossible to prove it was a single contact that caused the transmission. But in theory (since that's all this exercise is anyway)? As the possible recipient, unlike a free market transaction, I typically have no way to avoid such a "transaction" not in my best interest.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

So Ryan White contracted AIDS through no fault of his own. He had a contagious disease. Should he have been locked up and never allowed in public? If so, why not just euthanize people like him? It's for the good of the community, right?

If I have a responsibility to my communities' health, why do I not have a responsibility to see that the same community is fed?

Did he intentionally indulge in behaviors that were likely to transmit his disease after he knew he had it? I maintain that willfully or irresponsibly behave in fashions likely to pass your illness to another is an initiation of force.

I do agree I do not have the responsibility for my community's health but I do have a responsibility to act in a responsible manner so as to not infect others.

 

[88GT]

OK, from another perspective: Am I not responsible for my actions? Many times we know when we're sick. If I know I'm sick and I make contact with others, do I not bear any responsibility for transmitting my illness to them if they catch it?

Admittedly, for the common, relatively, benign illnesses we contract any more, it would be virtually impossible to prove it was a single contact that caused the transmission. But in theory (since that's all this exercise is anyway)? As the possible recipient, unlike a free market transaction, I typically have no way to avoid such a "transaction" not in my best interest.

Sorry, I can't get behind the push to assign responsibility for the transmission of COMMUNICABLE diseases.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Sorry, I can't get behind the push to assign responsibility for the transmission of COMMUNICABLE diseases.

Do you take the same position if somebody suffering from AIDs knowingly engages in sexual acts with another person? What if they did it with specific intent to infect others? To reiterate, going to work and suffering through a cold is one thing but at some point, maybe depending on intent and seriousness, there would be some sort of criminal intent.

 

[Jludo]

Do you take the same position if somebody suffering from AIDs knowingly engages in sexual acts with another person? What if they did it with specific intent to infect others? To reiterate, going to work and suffering through a cold is one thing but at some point, maybe depending on intent and seriousness, there would be some sort of criminal intent.

Exactly, everyone should be vaccinated for HIV

 

[rambone]

Did he intentionally indulge in behaviors that were likely to transmit his disease after he knew he had it? I maintain that willfully or irresponsibly behave in fashions likely to pass your illness to another is an initiation of force.

Likely? How likely? How do you measure likelihood? Who gets to decide?

There's a 100% likelihood that millions of microorganisms will be falling off you every day for the rest of your life. You can't pick and choose which ones are forceful and which are not. The logic says that all these little invisible parasites are your responsibility. If dropping them is an act of force, then this is what you are left with. You'd be a criminal with or without the vaccine.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Likely? How likely? How do you measure likelihood? Who gets to decide?

There's a 100% likelihood that millions of microorganisms will be falling off you every day for the rest of your life. You can't pick and choose which ones are forceful and which are not. The logic says that all these little invisible parasites are your responsibility. If dropping them is an act of force, then this is what you are left with. You'd be a criminal with or without the vaccine.

I'm trying to see if there is any line here...You've got full blown AIDs and you know it. Do you have any level of culpability for passing that on to someone else when you have sex with them?

 

[CarmelHP]

The premise of this thread is quite reasonable. Coerced vaccinations violate the very core of libertarianism.

I'm starting to wonder why your arguments are becoming less and less reasonable now that I've pointed out several of your errors.

You're usually better than this.

I wasn't trying to argue, I threw up my hands and allowed you wail and gnash your teeth. I think you're overwrought, but full speed ahead, I don't really care what Reason magazine said, or who is or isn't a true libertarian.

 

[rambone]

I'm trying to see if there is any line here...You've got full blown AIDs and you know it. Do you have any level of culpability for passing that on to someone else when you have sex with them?

Because the other partner thought that risk-free promiscuity was a real thing? Maybe two people should go down to the clinic together and get tested before exchanging bodily fluids.

I'm going to stick with a consistent argument of not criminalizing disease. It opens up too many ugly doors, and it paves the way for everything we're talking about here.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Because the other partner thought that risk-free promiscuity was a real thing? Maybe two people should go down to the clinic together and get tested before exchanging bodily fluids.

I'm going to stick with a consistent argument of not criminalizing disease. It opens up too many ugly doors, and it paves the way for everything we're talking about here.

I'm really not trying to be obtuse here...The disease is not criminal; it just is. A gun is not criminal. What the person who has it and what they do with could be.

 

[rambone]

I'm really not trying to be obtuse here...The disease is not criminal; it just is. A gun is not criminal. What the person who has it and what they do with could be.

I meant "passing" disease along.

Is a death by AIDS worse than a death by influenza? Dead is dead. If you can be imprisoned for passing one along, I see nothing logically stopping the other from being treated the same way. It takes us down a bad road. I could pose a ton of scenarios that would illustrate why this is a very bad idea.

 

[jamil]

Because the other partner thought that risk-free promiscuity was a real thing? Maybe two people should go down to the clinic together and get tested before exchanging bodily fluids.

I'm going to stick with a consistent argument of not criminalizing disease. It opens up too many ugly doors, and it paves the way for everything we're talking about here.

It's not criminalizing disease, it's criminalizing using disease as a weapon. Or, criminalizing negligence resulting in something catastrophic.

 

[rambone]

It's not criminalizing disease, it's criminalizing using disease as a weapon. Or, criminalizing negligence resulting in something catastrophic.

I understand what you're arguing, but I don't agree.

 

[rambone]

Bloomberg and the NYC city council are unanimous supporters of mandatory vaccinations. That Ronald Bailey guy sounds like he would fit in with that crowd.

New York City requires flu vaccine in city preschools and day cares - CNN.com

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Intentionally passing on a communicable lethal illness is already a crime. Shall we really add the unintentional passing on of a communicable non-lethal illness to the already-expansive and already-covered corpus of law? Do we really want to walk down that road? Are we not as a society litigious enough already? Are our courts not already overburdened with heavy caseloads? Are our rights not already infringed enough?

Anyone who promotes mandatory vaccination - for which there are severe health risks to a small proportion of the population due to sensitivity of component vaccine ingredients, and for which there is minimal to small efficacy; in order to fallaciously attempt to remake the world - is an enemy of Liberty and the enemy of a free People.

 

[jamil]

I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocating making unintentional passing of generally harmless diseases a crime.

ETA: vax.

 

[dirtfarmerz]

It seems like most of Rambone’s posts go something like this:

Rambone is letting us know there is a bulldozer coming down our street. It is taking out all of the mailboxes, tearing up half of the driveways and some of the front porches of our homes. Rambone believes that the bulldozer will eventually hit some of our homes and possibly end some lives. He says every minute counts and that if we don’t do something, we will suffer because of our lack of effort.

88GT informs us the operator of the bulldozer is driving with an expired license.

Churchmouse tells us he sure would like to drive that thing, maybe swerve to the “left” side of the road more.

mrjarrell says the bulldozer isn’t quite big enough for the job it needs to do.
GodFearinGunTotin is watching, wondering where the bulldozer is going from here…

Dirtfarmerz, yikes, believes the diesel’s emissions are exceeding current EPA standards.

Streak says the operator of the bulldozer is doing a good job, but it’s not going quite fast enough.

HeadlessRoland tells us that Rambone has been correct on other issues and from all the damage that is out there for everyone to see, he is probably correct this time.

CarmelHP is complaining that the bulldozer is rusted and looks like it should be scrapped.

And then Rambone reminds us, again, that the bulldozer is coming down the street and that it is doing more damage now than it was when he first told us about it.


If I have not mentioned it before, I really enjoy being a member of INGO.

 

[Expat]

Of course it appears the bulldozer is actually working in a construction zone doing the work it was contracted to do...