Reloads for self defense????

[BehindBlueI's]

Add other factors in such as no bench-rest, iron sights, and a short barrel, and you can easily miss a target at 7 yards.

The ammo isn't the problem there.

 

[RMC]

The ammo isn't the problem there.

Then what was it?

 

[rvb]

Add other factors in such as no bench-rest, iron sights, and a short barrel, and you can easily miss a target at 7 yards.

The ammo isn't the problem there.

Then what was it?

Bullet could be tumbling and key holing, but won't miss at 7 yds...

 

[rhino]

I've been known to carry my match ammo. I have no reservations doing so. I've shot a LOT of it (ballpark 100k rounds) and am way more confident in it than something I've put a couple boxes through at $1/round to "test."

Assuming you match velocity with right JHP bullet, a .38 super race gun would make a formidable defensive weapon. It would be tough to find factory ammo that would match some of the loads that really work the compensator well.

 

[rvb]

Assuming you match velocity with right JHP bullet, a .38 super race gun would make a formidable defensive weapon. It would be tough to find factory ammo that would match some of the loads that really work the compensator well.

yea, 28 rounds of 1400fps/125gr hotness would be awesome. just don't shoot it in a confined space w/o ear pro. I'd rather have a 10.5" SBRd AR!

Tonight I'll see if I can find the photo of one of my jhps that went through a target after opening up on a twig....

-rvb

 

[rhino]

yea, 28 rounds of 1400fps/125gr hotness would be awesome. just don't shoot it in a confined space w/o ear pro. I'd rather have a 10.5" SBRd AR!

Tonight I'll see if I can find the photo of one of my jhps that went through a target after opening up on a twig....

-rvb

So we replace the comp with a suppressor! Voila!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Then what was it?

Not the ammo. I figured sometimes a picture is worth 1,000 words so I headed to Indy Trading Post's indoor range with some factory ammo. The .38 is all 5-10 years old and a mish-mash I dumped in an ammo can to use at BUG qualification at work. The .40 is relatively fresh, left over Speer Lawman from a class I recently took.

Starting off with the P226 at 7 yards, iron sights and freehand, 2" circles for targets, 5 shot groups with first shot DA and then 4 SA:

15y, full magazine of 12. Shot #3 was a called flier and was a bit low. The rest are in a roughly 1.3" group:

Now, that would not cover the "short barrel" aspect, so let's move on to some .38 snubbies. Colt Detective Special, intentionally loaded with three kinds of ammunition. Federal, S&B, and Remington. Weight varied from 130gr to 158gr. Two were lead round nose, the other four were jacketed.

I also shot my LCR with a mix-match of the same ammo. All 7 yards, all free hand, all (obviously) with a short barrel gun with iron sights.

2" circles for targets:

So, about 1.5" group with the DS, about a 2" group with the LCR. The low/right with the LCR was flinch. You can see the different bullet profiles and speeds cut (or ripped) the paper differently but no appreciable difference in accuracy at 7y that would account for rounds off paper.

 

[rvb]

So we replace the comp with a suppressor! Voila!

[video=youtube;HOxeH_OQpFw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOxeH_OQpFw[/video]

 

[RMC]

Bullet could be tumbling and key holing, but won't miss at 7 yds...

Maybe, but I don't think so. I've shot different loads of 45 acp and missed the paper 3 out of 7 times with one load and the holes were round and then shot a different load and all 7 shots were in the black. This was factory ammo but I've done it with my loads too. After shooting for well over 40 years I believe I know when it's operator error on my part.

 

[rvb]

At one of our pistol matches recently, I was RO'ing, and while scoring one gentleman's run, I pointed out to him that about 1 in 5 of his rounds were key-holed. The key-holed impacts weren't any less accurate than the rest of his shooting. Some where on target 15-20 yards out. His buddies that came with him laughed and said people have been pointing that out to him for years, he didn't care! haha.

-rvb

 

[whiteoak]

BBI, Love that Colt Detective special. I have a later version with the ejector shroud that I still pack as a CCW from time to time. It was my (chicago reload) in my winter coat pocket, and did some time under the robes of the county judge, as a loaner for a few terms. They always seem to shoot well and have great point-ability. only issue I ever had was packin them without the hammer digging in as they tend to like to scar you up a bit, with the old school holsters we had in the 80's and 90's.

 

[RMC]

At one of our pistol matches recently, I was RO'ing, and while scoring one gentleman's run, I pointed out to him that about 1 in 5 of his rounds were key-holed. The key-holed impacts weren't any less accurate than the rest of his shooting. Some where on target 15-20 yards out. His buddies that came with him laughed and said people have been pointing that out to him for years, he didn't care! haha.

-rvb

I had a Remington Viper .22 that wouldn't stabilize the bullets and I was lucky to the lid of a 5-gal pail at 10 yds. The bullets were going through sideways so thinking I might be too close, I move back another 5-10 yards and missed the lid completely. At 75 yards it had at best a 48 inch radius group. I don't think it was even 75 yds but I barely hit my barn that the target was hanging on. It's always good to make sure the ammo and the gun perform as you want before relying on it in a critical situation.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI, Love that Colt Detective special. I have a later version with the ejector shroud that I still pack as a CCW from time to time. It was my (chicago reload) in my winter coat pocket, and did some time under the robes of the county judge, as a loaner for a few terms. They always seem to shoot well and have great point-ability. only issue I ever had was packin them without the hammer digging in as they tend to like to scar you up a bit, with the old school holsters we had in the 80's and 90's.

I shoot the LCR better, but the DS is way sexier. I'm cheating with some Pachy grips at the moment, but when I get a Tyler T-grip will go back to period correct wooden ones.

 

[rvb]

So we have moved on from the point of the claim that was made (whether short barrel, iron sights, no bench rest makes it easy to miss at 7 yds) vs the extreme inaccuracies of pure crap/wrong ammo or wrong twist rate. Not having a bench and using iron sights has nothing to do with the ammo and rests squarely on the shoulders of the trigger puller. period.

a short barrel, well, "in theory" can cause some accuracy problems, but not usually. realistically, short barrel on a pistol usually means shorter sight radius, which is where some inaccuracy comes from. extreme short, like a snubby revolver, can be picky in terms of velocity and bullet weight relative to twist. However I've never seen anything go through my snubby (642) so poorly I couldn't hit the target... worst I've yet to experience was 2-3" 7 yd groups.

All I was trying to add in my anecdote was that even pure crap / tumbling / inaccurate ammo has a hard time missing a target at just 21'.

-rvb

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Granted, I'm talking about shooting a rifle from a bench but if you figure a group of factory loads causing an increase of 500% in the size groups you are accustomed to shooting then I consider that to be very substantial food for thought. Add other factors in such as no bench-rest, iron sights, and a short barrel, and you can easily miss a target at 7 yards.

So we have moved on from the point of the claim that was made (whether short barrel, iron sights, no bench rest makes it easy to miss at 7 yds) vs the extreme inaccuracies of pure crap/wrong ammo or wrong twist rate. Not having a bench and using iron sights has nothing to do with the ammo and rests squarely on the shoulders of the trigger puller. period.

The thread is wandering now, but the "factory ammo sucks and my own QC is way better" is what originally got us here. Hopefully the above pictures using regular ol' factory Speer training ammo put that to bed.

I think at this point I've shown factory ammo is available that is as consistent and accurate enough as to be a wash in a defensive shooting. Yes, some guns don't like some ammo. That's nothing to do with factory ammo. My P245 shoots Critical Defense and standard pressure HSTs significantly better than Critical Duty or HST +P. It doesn't like +P, even from a rest. That doesn't mean those loads are bad, they are just not for that gun. That just means I should run PDX-1, HST, Gold Dot, Critical Defense, or any of the other high quality defensive loads available that it does like and that perform well.

Jerry seems to do alright with factory Hornady ammo:

[video=youtube;HIwVK_FxGZk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwVK_FxGZk[/video]

Egos aside, if you're throwing shots off paper at 7 yards it's not due to short barrels, iron sights, or shooting without a rest.

 

[RMC]

Thanks for the dig.

 

[BE Mike]

I can get a load of talcum powder and bubblegum to group at 7 yards!

 

[RMC]

Only if it comes directly from the factory.

 

[rvb]

Assuming you match velocity with right JHP bullet, a .38 super race gun would make a formidable defensive weapon. It would be tough to find factory ammo that would match some of the loads that really work the compensator well.

yea, 28 rounds of 1400fps/125gr hotness would be awesome. just don't shoot it in a confined space w/o ear pro. I'd rather have a 10.5" SBRd AR!

Tonight I'll see if I can find the photo of one of my jhps that went through a target after opening up on a twig....

-rvb

Not making any comments about its "tactical-ity-ness," just a cool picture of a partially expanded jhp from a twig...

 

[canterbc]

Not making any comments about its "tactical-ity-ness," just a cool picture of a partially expanded jhp from a twig...

Now that is pretty cool!