Repeal of school gun free zones introduced by RON PAUL

[thebishopp]

It was unconstitutional, then they put in the magic words "interstate commerce" and all is well again.

Lol, yeah, they tend to use that term to cover just about anything... even if there is no "interstate commerce" going on.

 

[Hornett]

YES!



I hope this finds some traction.
It has been the bane of my existence since my son started playing soccer and running high school track.
Can't take a gun in.
Can't leave it in the car.
Any wrong move is a federal offense.
It nearly makes it impossible to carry if you have kids in sports.
BLEH!

 

[japartridge]

I contacted my representative and senators on this.... via email

 

[gunowner930]

What an asinine law to begin with. I could be legally carry almost anyway in the state, but as soon as I step foot onto the holy ground of a K-12 school I'm a felon. I'd also like to see a repeal of the Hughes Amendment in the same backdoor slimy fashion in which it was passed. A full auto AR in .22LR would be a hell of a plinking toy.

 

[Drakkule]

Information Maintained by the Office of Code Revision Indiana Legislative Services Agency
IC 35-47-9
Chapter 9. Possession of Firearms on School Property and School Buses
IC 35-47-9-0.1
Application of chapter
Sec. 0.1. The addition of this chapter by P.L.140-1994 applies to crimes committed after June 30, 1994.
As added by P.L.220-2011, SEC.624.

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.
(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.

IC 35-47-9-2
Possession of firearms on school property, at school function, or on school bus; felony
Sec. 2. A person who possesses a firearm:
(1) in or on school property;
(2) in or on property that is being used by a school for a school function; or
(3) on a school bus;
commits a Class D felony.

So it is legal to have a gun while you are dropping off your kids, and not staying on the property.

 

[Hornett]

(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.

Dude.
I don't sit in the car to watch the soccer games and track meets.
The very second I step out onto the parking lot, I become a felon.
Whether I leave my gun in the car or not.
It's ridiculous!

 

[Stschil]

.. You take your kids to the zoo and there's a school trip there, even one you knew nothing about, you've just unknowingly become a felon. This is not justice, it's just playing to emotional .

Blessings,
Bill

Not arguing with you on the emotional part, but I would think, maybe incorrectly, that the zoo example wouldn't pass the test for felony unless the Zoo itself made it a School Field Trip day and only admitted people that were taking part in a function sanctioned by their childrens' school adminitration, otherwise it's open to the public. Kind of like you taking your homeschooled children to an Indy Park and there happen to be a class there from a local school.
Like I said, I could very well be wrong, I didn't write the law and am using uncommon common sense.

 

[jedi]

Not arguing with you on the emotional part, but I would think, maybe incorrectly, that the zoo example wouldn't pass the test for felony unless the Zoo itself made it a School Field Trip day and only admitted people that were taking part in a function sanctioned by their childrens' school adminitration, otherwise it's open to the public. Kind of like you taking your homeschooled children to an Indy Park and there happen to be a class there from a local school.
Like I said, I could very well be wrong, I didn't write the law and am using uncommon common sense.

Sadly right now there is no case law on this very topic that BoR brings up. The law is "gray" in this area and it could go either way in court right now. The spirit of the law was to ensure that a student/parent would not take a gun say to a prom (off school campus) but in the process of writing the text the "what about the other people" at the same location as the school function was never addressed, never thought of.

 

[Stschil]

Sadly right now there is no case law on this very topic that BoR brings up. The law is "gray" in this area and it could go either way in court right now. The spirit of the law was to ensure that a student/parent would not take a gun say to a prom (off school campus) but in the process of writing the text the "what about the other people" at the same location as the school function was never addressed, never thought of.

So, if I as a guest staying at the Marriott or even taking my best girl to dinner there, LTCH, handgun etc, and a school rented a ball room for prom, I'd be a felon? I don't think that makes any sense whatsoever. Gray language or not, that isn't the spirit of the law.

With permission of all who have posted in this thread, post it here or PM me, I'd like to copy some of these questions and responses to this issue and forward them on to my Rep with the suggestion that this be clarified within the IC during the next legislative session.

 

[2A_Tom]

I have wondered about this, because I go to the library a lot. If i am at the library and a school bus pulls up and unloads because the school is using the library for some kind of project. does that automatically make the library a soft target that I must leave and hope I don't get caught before I get out the door.

I am for any legislation that removes soft target.

Federal buildings included. Post offices? Since the days of Floyd, Derringer, Barrow and the rest have bullets flown into post offices? In my lifetime the only murders I've heard of in post offices in the back room when someone goes postal.

 

[ViperJock]

Congressman Paul has my support and best wishes with this resolution. Unfortunately, as stated above, most people will react negatively to this idea.

this. I respect his brass balls and his ideas but I kinda wish he wouldn't be even more controversial until AFTER he wins the election

 

[Bill of Rights]

So, if I as a guest staying at the Marriott or even taking my best girl to dinner there, LTCH, handgun etc, and a school rented a ball room for prom, I'd be a felon? I don't think that makes any sense whatsoever. Gray language or not, that isn't the spirit of the law.

With permission of all who have posted in this thread, post it here or PM me, I'd like to copy some of these questions and responses to this issue and forward them on to my Rep with the suggestion that this be clarified within the IC during the next legislative session.

You have my permission to copy and ask about my posts in this thread, Steve.
I asked an attorney about this a while back-specifically, I asked about a school field trip exiting their bus at McDonald's while I was sitting there, eating my Big Mac. If I am doing so, armed, the schoolchildren exiting the bus to eat lunch whilst on their field trip would make of me a felon, due to this law, if a LEO happened to want to push the issue and an overzealous prosecutor wanted to show how "tough on crime" he is.

When you ask your legislators about it, ask them what it is about that one arbitrary property line between a street and a school that makes untrustworthy someone who carries peaceably and harmlessly everywhere else. Ask them also what it is about that same imaginary line that makes a murderous criminal trustworthy in that a law he won't obey anywhere else, for some reason, he supposedly will obey that one in that location.

Ask those legislators if they would willingly place their children in a location where they have no defense from those who would do them harm. When they tell you they would not, ask them, then, why they do so EVERY TIME they send them to school?

We are not, by any means, perfect. We, collectively, are members of a group of people of whom perhaps as many as two in a thousand commit an act that causes the removal of our LTCH. Those acts might and probably do include multiple OWIs or perhaps theft... but also in infinitesimally small numbers do include unsafe acts with a firearm. That said, however, we are far safer with our firearms than are the criminals against whom we wish protection. We are safer, even, than are police officers as a group, though as with any group, some are better than others.

The point is that if they want an effective law, criminalize the USE of a firearm other than in lawful self-defense on school grounds. Oh wait, they already did, everywhere else. What they need to see is that laws do not stop any criminal from any act, they only provide a means of punishing those acts after the fact. The laws they have now do nothing to stop criminal violence, they only prevent lawful self-defense. I understand their fear. I understand that no one wants to have his name on the law that (supposedly) "allowed the criminal to enter the campus unchallenged". I understand that they want re-elected and fear that they will not be if they pass laws that restore that particular freedom and liberty. I understand also, however, that the Constitutions that those legislators swear to uphold and defend are specific:
"A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

"The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State."

If they do not plan on keeping those oaths they took, why did they take them in the first place?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

Oh BoR

The question I have is the OP posted that Ron Paul is drafting a new law to repeal the gun free school zone (ie a federal law which the OP pointed to be GUN-FREE SCHOOL ZONES ACT OF 1990) Yet per Winki that law was deemed unconstitutaltion in 1995 (all the law or part of it I don't know).

So my question is..
Is there indeed a federal law that does make "gun free school zones" or is it a state law that does that since in 1995 the USSC nulled the 1990 law?


That is where I'm confused.

I know that the state won't define school to be just pre-school. That was just an example of me saying how the state could get around the fed law *IF* indeed the federal law was around (ie. i think it was nulled by the USSC).

Sorry, I misunderstood. As I understand it, the Fed. GFSZ law still exists and specifies that you may not have a firearm within 1000 feet of a school property, however, that law is inapplicable if you possess a license or permit from the state that allows you to do so. On the actual property vs. within 1000 feet is another matter entirely.

 

[jedi]

So, if I as a guest staying at the Marriott or even taking my best girl to dinner there, LTCH, handgun etc, and a school rented a ball room for prom, I'd be a felon? I don't think that makes any sense whatsoever. Gray language or not, that isn't the spirit of the law.

With permission of all who have posted in this thread, post it here or PM me, I'd like to copy some of these questions and responses to this issue and forward them on to my Rep with the suggestion that this be clarified within the IC during the next legislative session.

Yes you have my permission.

Tactical Firearms Training (member here on INGO)
INGunOwners - View Profile: Tactical Firearms Training

teaches the Comprehensive Indiana Gun Law course (he is an ATTY BTW and probably #2 in the state of IN in knowing the IN gun laws) and along with Bryan Lee Ciyouhttp://www.amazon.com/Indiana-Handgun-Law-Bryan-Ciyou/dp/0978627695# (Author) who has authored this book http://www.amazon.com/Indiana-Handgun-Law-Bryan-Ciyou/dp/0978627695 and is the #1 ATTY on Indiana gun laws have both advised that the very scenario that you posted and that BoR has write about along with this one below are all in violation of the law (black & white) text of the law.

Scenario:

You take your child to the Indy Zoo and are carrying a gun with your LTCH.
After you arrive you see a school bus pull up with school children who are also on that same day going to visit the Indy Zoo.

Per the letter of the law the Indy Zoo is now part of a school function and is OFF LIMITs to firearms. As such if you go into the zoo or stay in the zoo while the children are there you are in violation of the law.

This is the example both have used and the STRESS POINT is that right now there is NO CASE LAW to back up if the "black and white text" of the law would indeed be correct or unreasonable.

Until such time that CASE LAW does occur the only thing we have is the black and white text of the law and per their review you would be in violation of the law (as written).

Now as BoR said will an LEO press it and will a DA? Or will common sense at the LEO/DA level prevail. No one knows at the present time.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Yes you have my permission.

Tactical Firearms Training (member here on INGO)
INGunOwners - View Profile: Tactical Firearms Training

teaches the Comprehensive Indiana Gun Law course (he is an ATTY BTW and probably #2 in the state of IN in knowing the IN gun laws) and along with Bryan Lee Ciyou (Author) who has authored this book Amazon.com: Indiana Handgun Law (9780978627690): Bryan Lee Ciyou: Books and is the #1 ATTY on Indiana gun laws have both advised that the very scenario that you posted and that BoR has write about along with this one below are all in violation of the law (black & white) text of the law.

Scenario:

You take your child to the Indy Zoo and are carrying a gun with your LTCH.
After you arrive you see a school bus pull up with school children who are also on that same day going to visit the Indy Zoo.

Per the letter of the law the Indy Zoo is now part of a school function and is OFF LIMITs to firearms. As such if you go into the zoo or stay in the zoo while the children are there you are in violation of the law.

This is the example both have used and the STRESS POINT is that right now there is NO CASE LAW to back up if the "black and white text" of the law would indeed be correct or unreasonable.

Until such time that CASE LAW does occur the only thing we have is the black and white text of the law and per their review you would be in violation of the law (as written).

Now as BoR said will an LEO press it and will a DA? Or will common sense at the LEO/DA level prevail. No one knows at the present time.

It's worse than that, Jedi. It doesn't matter if you go into or stay in the zoo after that, their arrival makes you a felon.
It might (maybe) be arguable as ex post facto... you did the act (entering the zoo) and afterward, it was made a crime by their arrival... It would take some major jurisprudential wrangling to pull that particular rabbit out of that particular hat, I think.

Edit: Further... even if you are in your car with a pistol and you've driven someone else there... the law reads:

IC 35-47-9
Chapter 9. Possession of Firearms on School Property and School Buses
IC 35-47-9-0.1
Application of chapter
Sec. 0.1. The addition of this chapter by P.L.140-1994 applies to crimes committed after June 30, 1994.
As added by P.L.220-2011, SEC.624.

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.
(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.

IC 35-47-9-2
Possession of firearms on school property, at school function, or on school bus; felony
Sec. 2. A person who possesses a firearm:
(1) in or on school property;
(2) in or on property that is being used by a school for a school function; or
(3) on a school bus;
commits a Class D felony.

When you drove there, you did not transport someone else to a school function... it became a school function after your arrival. Technically, a case might be made that any possession of any firearm by anyone without a badge would be a criminal act.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[jedi]

yes bill i know its worse & that is what many hear fail to understand!!!

 

[hondatech2k2]

Hmm, interesting topic/read. I have both versions of the Indiana handgun laws that he wrote (picked them up at the 1500). And I have to say that you would be amazed at how many LTCH holders have no idea about simple things like this, the castle doctrine, and other laws that they really need to know. I mean, if you were to tell me that going to the zoo while CC and not leaving when a school function arrives puts me in a position to violate the law...I would have laughed. Now... not so much. Good post!

 

[Bill of Rights]

Hmm, interesting topic/read. I have both versions of the Indiana handgun laws that he wrote (picked them up at the 1500). And I have to say that you would be amazed at how many LTCH holders have no idea about simple things like this, the castle doctrine, and other laws that they really need to know. I mean, if you were to tell me that going to the zoo while CC and not leaving when a school function arrives puts me in a position to violate the law...I would have laughed. Now... not so much. Good post!

Both? There're three of them out now! Indiana Gun Laws | Indiana Firearms Law

And Mr. Ciyou is an INGO advertiser, too, so he has a forum down amongst them where you can post any questions you might have... not sure you'll get an answer, but it's worth asking!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Stschil]

Permissions

Thanks for the go ahead, Gents! It may take me a bit to put this together, because I want it to put as much information together as possible to present, rather than just an emotional letter from a concerned citizen.

If I'm not already on somebodies watch list already, I'm sure I'll be afterward

 

[buford t justice]

I took my 20 gauge in for a demonstration I did on gun safety in grade school.

Things were a tad different back then in rural America.

Things sure were different, I built a muzzle loader as my shop project in highschool in about 1982