Thanks, like most things. Being stupid eventually is a self cleaning oven.
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Safety VS safety?
- Thread starter NHT3
- Start date
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Kirk Freeman
Grandmaster
Given that when it comes to pistols, it is Glock World and we all just live in it. Glock, Smut und Weasel, Sprungfeld, Ssshhheytar, Falter, Pizza guns (APX), etc. all are without external safeties and they are what, 93.8% of the market to first timers?
Aren't new gun owners using striker fired pistols? How many of those use manual safeties? I don't think Glock markets their external safeties here (aftermarket, yes)? On the MHS Glock 19X there the safeties that Big Army demanded, but on COTS guns they are absent. Just got into an argument over this as a Zoomer told me that Glock does not EVER use external safeties (ahh, Zoomer, get out more).
Does anyone do safeties on plastic fantastic striker pistols? Who is using a 1911 as their first pistol now (other than my family)?
Do not see this as an issue. If it is an issue, then learning the form until you forget the form with the 4 Rules and not being cutesy with special snowflake rules will fix it.
Aren't new gun owners using striker fired pistols? How many of those use manual safeties? I don't think Glock markets their external safeties here (aftermarket, yes)? On the MHS Glock 19X there the safeties that Big Army demanded, but on COTS guns they are absent. Just got into an argument over this as a Zoomer told me that Glock does not EVER use external safeties (ahh, Zoomer, get out more).
Does anyone do safeties on plastic fantastic striker pistols? Who is using a 1911 as their first pistol now (other than my family)?
Do not see this as an issue. If it is an issue, then learning the form until you forget the form with the 4 Rules and not being cutesy with special snowflake rules will fix it.
Last edited:
Kirk Freeman
Grandmaster
Sold a box car of California Z guns. Every time the buyer would come in I would beg him to stop buying them, but we sold the snot out of them. "Popcorn" guns.
I completely agree with the premise of the OP. Safety is the responsibility of the user, and is achieved through safe practices and handling. If it comes down to being dependent upon a mechanical device at any point, you've already screwed up.
I like the following version of the safety rules that I heard somewhere, but can't remember where (I wish I did so I could give credit). I think it's more descriptive and realistic while being less dependent on dogma:
1. Be relentlessly aware of your muzzle, and ensure that it's always pointed in the relatively safest direction.
2. Keep you finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are on-target and have made the conscious decision to fire.
3. Keep the weapon on safe until you are in the act of presentation.
4. Be sure of your target, and be sure that its foreground and background remain clear.
5. Always assume a weapon is loaded and treat it as such until you have visually and physically verified that it is not.
Discussing and understanding the reasoning behind these rules rather than just spouting off dogma (and then worse, telling somebody to violate that dogma by doing dry-fire practice) connects a lot better with a trainee, IMO. I dry-fire off-range all the time, but I make sure nobody is downrange (including on the other side of the wall(s)), ensure that the gun isn't loaded, and still adhere to all the other rules while doing it. With the normal rules, that's technically a violation...with this version it's allowed.
Personally, I prefer to carry guns without manual safety levers. It's the way I was trained, it's the way the gun I'm required to carry at work operates, and I like any weapon that I may need to use under stress to come into action the same way. That's in no way knocking someone who wants a weapon with a safety lever...mine is a personal choice that I've made for my own unique situation. In the rare occasion that I do carry a gun with a manual safety, it changes nothing about my handling practices apart from engaging and disengaging the safety at the appropriate times.
There are some platforms that I think really do demand a manual safety for safe operation. The manual safety on a 1911 prevents the hammer from falling by mechanically blocking the sear. That's a good thing. If you've ever encountered an over-sprung 1911 with a weak sear spring or worn sear, you know how easy it is for inertia to cause that hammer to fall (hopefully to be caught by the "half cock" notch). Considering the fact that most 1911s don't have any type of firing pin block, it makes that safety lever even more important.
The safety lever on a P320 simply blocks the trigger from being pulled but does nothing to the sear. Which is why it cracks me up when people argue that the gun needs one to prevent it from firing on its own due to mechanical failure (it's a valid argument that it may help prevent a negligent trigger pull, but if you're worried about a design flaw causing the striker to slip off the sear, the manual safety lever on that gun does nothing to prevent that from happening).
Contrast those two designs with the safety lever on a Beretta 92. It not only completely disengages the trigger bar, but also de-cocks the gun and rotates the plunger between the firing pin and the hammer out of line. And that's on a DA/SA gun with a firing pin block. There's a crazy amount of mechanical redundancy built into the safety systems on that gun. As a result, I'm comfortable carrying a Beretta in ways that I wouldn't necessarily carry a 1911 or my P320.
IMO, we need to have at least a basic understanding of how the gun we are using works, and know what that lever actually does. We also need to teach the logic and the "why" behind the safety rules so that people understand why they're vital. Nobody's perfect. We all make mistakes. The rules are designed to provide a certain amount of redundancy...hopefully enough to keep us out of trouble on our worst day if we're consciously doing our best to adhere to them. But an ongoing pattern of complacency will eventually catch up to you.
I like the following version of the safety rules that I heard somewhere, but can't remember where (I wish I did so I could give credit). I think it's more descriptive and realistic while being less dependent on dogma:
1. Be relentlessly aware of your muzzle, and ensure that it's always pointed in the relatively safest direction.
2. Keep you finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are on-target and have made the conscious decision to fire.
3. Keep the weapon on safe until you are in the act of presentation.
4. Be sure of your target, and be sure that its foreground and background remain clear.
5. Always assume a weapon is loaded and treat it as such until you have visually and physically verified that it is not.
Discussing and understanding the reasoning behind these rules rather than just spouting off dogma (and then worse, telling somebody to violate that dogma by doing dry-fire practice) connects a lot better with a trainee, IMO. I dry-fire off-range all the time, but I make sure nobody is downrange (including on the other side of the wall(s)), ensure that the gun isn't loaded, and still adhere to all the other rules while doing it. With the normal rules, that's technically a violation...with this version it's allowed.
Personally, I prefer to carry guns without manual safety levers. It's the way I was trained, it's the way the gun I'm required to carry at work operates, and I like any weapon that I may need to use under stress to come into action the same way. That's in no way knocking someone who wants a weapon with a safety lever...mine is a personal choice that I've made for my own unique situation. In the rare occasion that I do carry a gun with a manual safety, it changes nothing about my handling practices apart from engaging and disengaging the safety at the appropriate times.
There are some platforms that I think really do demand a manual safety for safe operation. The manual safety on a 1911 prevents the hammer from falling by mechanically blocking the sear. That's a good thing. If you've ever encountered an over-sprung 1911 with a weak sear spring or worn sear, you know how easy it is for inertia to cause that hammer to fall (hopefully to be caught by the "half cock" notch). Considering the fact that most 1911s don't have any type of firing pin block, it makes that safety lever even more important.
The safety lever on a P320 simply blocks the trigger from being pulled but does nothing to the sear. Which is why it cracks me up when people argue that the gun needs one to prevent it from firing on its own due to mechanical failure (it's a valid argument that it may help prevent a negligent trigger pull, but if you're worried about a design flaw causing the striker to slip off the sear, the manual safety lever on that gun does nothing to prevent that from happening).
Contrast those two designs with the safety lever on a Beretta 92. It not only completely disengages the trigger bar, but also de-cocks the gun and rotates the plunger between the firing pin and the hammer out of line. And that's on a DA/SA gun with a firing pin block. There's a crazy amount of mechanical redundancy built into the safety systems on that gun. As a result, I'm comfortable carrying a Beretta in ways that I wouldn't necessarily carry a 1911 or my P320.
IMO, we need to have at least a basic understanding of how the gun we are using works, and know what that lever actually does. We also need to teach the logic and the "why" behind the safety rules so that people understand why they're vital. Nobody's perfect. We all make mistakes. The rules are designed to provide a certain amount of redundancy...hopefully enough to keep us out of trouble on our worst day if we're consciously doing our best to adhere to them. But an ongoing pattern of complacency will eventually catch up to you.
It was called Mindset Labs. Left quite the impression on me also. I treated blue guns differently after that class.
So many folks let themselves get wrapped around the axle disecting the exact details of their impression of the Four Rules, rather than the difficult premise of conditioning yourself to NOT allow your pistol to point at anything that doesn't need shot.
It was called Mindset Labs. Left quite the impression on me also. I treated blue guns differently after that class.
So many folks let themselves get wrapped around the axle disecting the exact details of their impression of the Four Rules, rather than the difficult premise of conditioning yourself to NOT allow your pistol to point at anything that doesn't need shot.
You Army guys started all that Grip Safety silliness in what 1909 or so.
Then cried
aa, I can't reholster my fired 1911. So now another safety.
NHT3
Grandmaster
More instances than I care to remember when working as RSO I had a firearm pointed at me and when chastised the operator said, "the safety is on OR it's unloaded"
NHT3
Grandmaster
As I stated in the thread about the 320, nothing accidental about a bang when the trigger is depressed unless you consider non existent trigger control and accident, I would put that under the heading of negligence but maybe I'm being to harsh.A manual safety would surely have prevented a lot of accidental discharges along the way. Notwithstanding this obvious stance a little common sense and following the basic safety rules at all times would also reduce negligent discharges. My
NHT3
Grandmaster
You may want to research that a little more.You Army guys started all that Grip Safety silliness in what 1909 or so.
Then cried
But that's breaking more than one of the basic firearm rules. It has nothing to do with the safety being on or off.
With what you posted, you just agree but with more words.
BehindBlueI's
Grandmaster
- Oct 3, 2012
- 25,905
- 113
Negligence and accidental describe different aspects and a given incident can be both. Accidental is simply you didn't mean for it to happen. Negligent means you created conditions making it more likely than prudent for it to happen. I know this is some sort of cultural touchstone in the gun community for some reason, which I tend to bypass by simply calling them unintended instead of either.
NHT3
Grandmaster
You asked for evidence and I supplied my personal experience as evidence. People pointing a gun at me is a big problem for me and it happened with new shooters as well as those that claimed to be experienced. If you've spent any time around others handling firearms and have never witnessed the muzzle of a firearm or someone breaking more than one of the 4 rules you are living a charmed life.
NHT3
Grandmaster
I like UD and I may refer to it that way more often. I know we're playing with words but not following basic safety protocols when handling a firearm, intended or not seems negligent to me.
Lol. Certainly I've had and seen the same as you. But having or not having a mechanical safety is irrelevant.
Basic rules are being broken.
Edit,
And I will say I dropped my membership at a local conservation club over not enforcing continuing safety issues.
I've been waiting for it to show itself..lol
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