SC: DEA Agent Shot in Raid, Self Defense Claimed

[rhino]

I just don't understand how the short term rush of playing ninja justifies long-term injury to everyone involved. Still waiting to hear the justification for this. But I admit my ignorance on this.

Probably not a great idea to hold your breath while you're waiting. All I've read and heard is rationalization that is . . . less than convincing in the big picture. However, I too am ignorant of such matters.

 

[Rookie]

Why do you hate ninjas?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I remember part of the Hollars trial. During the whole affair I could not help but think, "ok, the coppers know he has a family and guns in the house, why not arrest him on the 3rd controlled buy or set up a 4th".

Asking (what I think) is a legit question here. Not defending dealing drugs, the legislature made it illegal, but the method of enforcement left me scratching my head.

 

[looney2ns]

I remember part of the Hollars trial. During the whole affair I could not help but think, "ok, the coppers know he has a family and guns in the house, why not arrest him on the 3rd controlled buy or set up a 4th".

Asking (what I think) is a legit question here. Not defending dealing drugs, the legislature made it illegal, but the method of enforcement left me scratching my head.

Maybe because it looks better on the news! Like swat did here in E'ville on a granny and her grandchild, and swat thought it was good idea to invite the press. Problem was, wrong house. $4,000 damage to house city got to cough up.

[video=youtube_share;NUahTD5IBXU]http://youtu.be/NUahTD5IBXU[/video]


[video=youtube_share;wl3PG4LdYoU]http://youtu.be/wl3PG4LdYoU[/video]

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

This really needs to stop. There are so many other opportunities than busting down doors.

 

[rhino]

This really needs to stop. There are so many other opportunities than busting down doors.

None of which are as cool.

 

[T.Lex]

I remember part of the Hollars trial. During the whole affair I could not help but think, "ok, the coppers know he has a family and guns in the house, why not arrest him on the 3rd controlled buy or set up a 4th".

Asking (what I think) is a legit question here. Not defending dealing drugs, the legislature made it illegal, but the method of enforcement left me scratching my head.

Not advocating, but responding.

I think it has to do with a controlled environment. In the perp's house, enough officers, arriving quickly enough, can effectively control the entire environment pretty fast. If they wait until the perp is in his car, the feeling is that you lose too much of the ability to control the environment and you put uninvolved civilians at risk.

Now, I grant you, that line of thinking does not take into account:
1) the Delorean type setup where LE has near complete control; and,
2) that the family of the perp are also, usually, "uninvolved civilians."

In my experience, Indy-area LE agencies use those kinds of tactics in appropriate situations. Generally.

ETA:
I'm racking my brain to remember a case, I thought it as from southern Indiana, where they used a near-army of fed and local LEOs to stop a guy. Dude ended up shooting a DEA guy before he was arrested, alive. I thought it was Charles Sweeney, but he was already in jail.

 

[Lebowski]

What I don't understand and something I bring up when these stories are released: How do we change this? What can be done? As far as I'm concerned, if you're a local PO, you're an employee of the people and community or state you serve in. I feel that if people don't appreciate or agree with how things are done, then we should have some sort of ability to have that changed.

I'm sure it's just an idealistic thought but I don't want to see innocent people killed in a no-knock raids just as I don't want to see 'just following orders' cops to be shot either (even if it'd be justified). This **** needs to end, putting too many people (and pets) at risk.

 

[T.Lex]

Police chief appointed by mayor (most places). Vote for a new mayor.

County sheriffs are elected. Elect a new sheriff.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

How do we change this?

Take their toys away. No tanks. No photo ops. No DoJ matching funds.

Cut their budgets and you jerk their chain and have their attention.

Show up at city budget meetings. Ask your county commissioner, why does the Sheriff have a tank?

Assume no SWAT toys in the present case, there would have been a 4th drug deal where they Dutch pile him, or arrest him at Wal-Mart buying beer.

 

[Paul30]

Well, they were serving a warrant. However, what I don't understand is why not just arrest him when he is going jogging or leaving the house for groceries or whatever.

Just like the Shannon Hollars case, 3 set up buys, yet they go to arrest him in his house with his family where the police know he has guns. Never understood that decision.

Perhaps INGO LE will enlighten me on that reasoning.

David Koresh made the same statement on a home video when they came and shot up his community and burned it to the ground along with him and several other residents. The documentary "Waco Rules of Engagement" "Waco a new revelation" should have been an eye opener as to how these things can escalate when you force a human into fight or flight mode.

In the video that he hoped would make it out he said they came there looking for a fight. They could have arrested him on his way to walmart on any given day, but they chose to come in guns blazing. Home invasions are getting more common, and home invaders have many times yelled Federal Agents, Police, etc. to get the homeowner to submit. Then of course it's too late once they realize they have been lied to. The average person who does not commit crimes has no reason to believe law enforcement is breaking into their home guns blazing, and the risks to innocent people and officers is not worth any evidence they might find. It just needs to stop. Someone breaks into my home at night they are simply getting shot, badge or not, the pope, or your average street thug. My doors are locked for a reason, and a person needs to feel safe in their castle. If I am ever on a jury, the guy would walk even if they proved they found tons of drugs, it's a bad tactic that needs to stop. If a few more of these go bad, and the real victim walks, then maybe they will change policy. The forfeiture law needs to change too, since it gives them every encouragement to do the raids, or even plant evidence. If everyone in the chain benefits monetarily, then they all have a reason to make it happen from the lawmakers, cops, lawyers, and judges. They all benefit when someone forfeits their personal property, so it only stands to reason that they would do everything in their power to make it happen. I believe it was the second movie "Waco the new revelation" that shows the senate grilling the officers about how the evidence was tampered with, how high explosives were used, etc. I know many consider it a conspiracy theory, but a lot of people burned to death there and it all could have been avoided if they had simply staked the guy out and arrested him in a remote location when he was wide awake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4scgRAJxWc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr9pQ1pIbiU

 

[Dead Duck]

David Koresh..... (words words more words gov bad words period)

 

[Paul30]

So which words did you disagree with? The ones where bad night time raids are getting innocent people or officers killed, the ones where a person should feel safe and secure in their home, or the idea that a person should just throw their hands up and disarm when anyone breaks down your door in the middle of the night and yells "police". I have seen home invaders use this tactic, it's not new. If they are willing to break down a door in the middle of the night armed with the intent to kill the residents if they resist, then it's not hard to believe they might tell a little white lie to make sure the victims are completely submissive in the crime. These night time raids could be avoided by simply arresting the person away from home, when the person is awake. It would make it safer for the officers, and the citizen suspected of a crime.

 

[Dead Duck]

The WACO conspiracy theories.
And your video links.

It's all Bull****!

 

[Drail]

Yup, the nice ATF "agents" only went to that compound hiding in cattle trailers to keep everyone safe, especially the children. Bless their hearts. And after they screwed everything up as only the ATF could, the FBI (not to be outdone) had to come in and clean up their mess and make sure the fire trucks were held back (for their safety) and then make sure all of the evidence was "lost". Sadly the children could not be saved and all committed suicide. Really excellent work.

 

[KokomoDave]

Nope. Don't take no time at all for a thread to go spiraling out of control. Must be Deflate Gate II.

 

[Paul30]

The WACO conspiracy theories.
And your video links.

It's all Bull****!

Actually, one of the video's are video of the proceedings of the U.S. House investigating the event. Several good points were made, and several people lost their jobs. The main point I was making was how out of control a simple arrest can go when all they had to do was arrest him when he was away from home. That is something that is valid, and not the first time it has happened. When they crash through a door in the middle of the night and startle someone there is a good chance bullets will fly. On the other hand if they walk up behind him in daylight hours at another location, in uniform, and arrest him then it will likely go much better. It's also likely if it's the wrong person, they will simply show ID rather than wake up thinking their home is being invaded by criminals, and they need to do whatever they need to do to protect themselves, their spouse and children. Lately one of their flash bangs landed in a baby's crib killing the baby. I watched a lot of witnesses testify on the senate floor and that is part of the video. When the investigators determined that high explosives were planted from the outside the room where the women and children were hiding and killed them all, it was also pretty convincing. When the front door recovered from the home was examined and the bullet holes were all going into the home and none going out, it was also inconsistent with with ATF testimony. Either way, several people died from a "raid" that didn't have to happen. Arrest the guy away from the location, charge him. It's safer for the officers and innocent people don't get hurt.

When the government investigates itself, it generally doesn't find any wrong doing. IRS Emails get lost, etc. Rep Bob Barr was one of the Reps that asked real questions during the House investigation. If you read Bob Barr's bio, and skip down to the part labeled Waco hearings, you will find he saw it as a farce where they simply held the hearing to put the issue to rest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Barr

"Barr has written: "The hearing was a farce: a virtual love fest, during which members of the Clinton Administration responded to softball questions from their colleagues in the House with superficial answers, and Republican queries were ignored or glossed over with disdain, if not outright contempt.[SUP]" [/SUP][SUP][/SUP] Barr called for Congress to reopen investigations, but senior House Republicans refused."

It was not a conspiracy, it was a bad operation that kept getting worse. There are several documentaries on it. PBS did one too.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/

When they asked for national guard weapons like tanks they were told that there were few exceptions that allowed that due to posse comitatus where military forces can't be used against civilians . One was a drug lab operation so they immediately said, "Oh, we think they have a drug lab operation" and the tanks were soon delivered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_comitatus_(common_law)

 

[Hoosier8]

They arrested Joel Robinson?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

He's getting 8 years.

SC man who shot DEA agent during surprise raid sentenced to eight years in prison | The State The State

 

[SteveM4A1]